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Transcript

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0:01Who are the characters behind science? This is Science Behind the Glass, illuminating the human side. In this podcast, we unveil the human side of laboratories and science. Scientists share personal experiences and we discuss their meanings from different perspectives and fields of research. Disclaimer, this is a translated version using AI voice for the guests. Welcome to Science Behind the Glass, where we explore the intersection between economics and the environment. Today, we are thrilled to host an economist who is breaking new ground in environmental analysis. Julian Ruiz is an economist currently pursuing his master’s in environmental and development at the Institute of Environmental Studies at the National University of Colombia. His research focuses on critical and contemporary topics, analyzing the factors that either limit or enhance ecological agriculture in a province of Boyacá, Colombia. This is not just an environmental issue. It is also economic and social, aiming to find sustainable agricultural paths that benefit rural communities. Julián’s commitment to the environment goes beyond academic research. He works as a consultant for the Association Ambiente y Sociedad, where he develops and implements innovative community -focused methodologies.

1:22His mission is to assist two municipalities in southwestern Colombia by conducting economic valuations of environmental losses and damages. He’s also a member of the editorial team of the magazine La Voz Agraria, a project aimed at giving visibility to actors in the national agrarian context. With an inclusive focus, this magazine has become a platform to amplify the voices of those working for Colombia’s rural areas. Julian, thank you so much for accepting our invitation.

1:52Thank you for inviting me. I’m really happy to be here with you. Julian, let’s start. Tell us. Being an economist, what led you to focus on the environment and development instead of pursuing a more traditional path like banking, finance, or earning more money? Well, I’ve always been inclined toward natural sciences and rural topics. When I was a child, I frequently visited a municipality in Boyaca called Nuevo Colón because my maternal family is from there. So, I had constant contact with nature. As time passed, I became very interested in social sciences and exact sciences. I found in economics a field that combined mathematics and social sciences, something that humanities subjects like sociology, history, and anthropology didn’t quite offer. That’s why I was drawn to economics. But throughout my studies, I always had environmental issues on my mind. Back then, I didn’t think of it as environmental per se, but rather as rural or agricultural. I tried to incorporate subjects related to rural themes into my undergraduate program. For instance, I took a course called Structure of Agrarian Problems. All of this led me to consider pursuing a graduate degree focused on environmental issues instead of following the path that many of my peers took toward economic sciences or finance.

3:12My interests leaned more towards social and rural issues. In my faculty, the Faculty of Economic Sciences at the National University, I discovered a graduate program called Masters in Environment and Development. That’s how I began to connect with these topics. Excellent. Let’s continue. Could you explain to us a bit about what economic valuation means? We often hear about the economy in terms of growth or GDP. These are the indicators we usually hear about in the news, right? But what exactly is economic valuation? How is valuation applied in extreme situations, for example? Yes, well, that’s quite a complex question. I related a lot to my experience entering the master’s program. When I joined as an economist, I carried with me the foundation of orthodox or neoclassical economics, which governs how states operate globally.

4:07This perspective is heavily focused on economic growth, often tied to the idea of economic development. The prevailing notion is that for a country to become wealthier, it must produce more goods and services. That’s the core of economic growth and the discourse surrounding developing and developed countries. This narrative largely stems from the global North, Europe, and the United States. These countries developed by accumulating capital and this neoclassical economic framework is what I was taught and what most economic schools teach. However, during my studies, I also encountered alternative perspectives, which are sometimes referred to as heterodox economics. The master’s program is very multidisciplinary. It includes not only economists, but also lawyers, geologists, engineers, biologists, and professionals from many other disciplines. The program seeks to level the knowledge of those without an economics background, while also helping economists like me strengthen our understanding of natural sciences.

5:08Now, environmental economic valuation is grounded in the logic of orthodox economics, focused on capital accumulation. It aims to measure changes in social well -being. For instance, when a piece of infrastructure is built, a construction project is initiated, or a region undergoes some sort of transformation. These changes inevitably impact social welfare, and economic valuation attempts to quantify these impacts. Using statistical techniques derived from orthodox economics, this approach assigns a monetary value to changes in social welfare. So, what are the main applications of this valuation? It’s widely used for environmental licensing. In Colombia, for example, licensing is required for projects, works, or activities with significant societal impact. Environmental economic valuation becomes a crucial tool for decision -making in public policies. Its main purpose is to assign a monetary value to assess and compare the costs and benefits of a project, considering its societal impact. In my consulting work with the Association Ambiente y Sociedad, I was hired to design a methodology that isn’t overly technical, but is instead more community -oriented and participatory, specifically in the context of environmental losses and damages caused by disasters. In Putamayo, for instance, I am implementing this methodology in two municipalities, Mocoa, the department’s capital, and Puerto Oasis, located further south. Could you share some specifics

6:41about what you have encountered in Mocoa? Sure. As many of you may know, in 2017, a landslide in Mocoa destroyed much of the city, leaving numerous victims. At that time, the government provided monetary aid, built some houses, and offered economic assistance. In my work, I’ve engaged with about 15 people who were directly affected. One key realization is how the state viewed these losses and damages. They focused solely on the immediate aftermath. How many homes were lost, how many lives were taken, and how many people became ill. They aimed to resolve those figures. But losses and damages are far more complex. Seven years later, we’re still seeing consequences that were not accounted for back then. The methodologies used didn’t include aspects like mental health. For example, many affected individuals from rural areas were relocated to small urban houses. These people underwent significant cultural and behavioral changes.

7:42They could no longer farm or cultivate their land. Instead, they found themselves confined to four walls, which led to numerous conflicts. All those changes brought a host of challenges. As you can see, these are complex issues that are difficult to analyze and traditional valuation methods don’t capture the full picture. Recognizing this complexity, a new approach has emerged within environmental economic valuation called integral valuation. Integral valuation argues that we can’t limit ourselves to assigning a monetary value alone. Instead, we must incorporate additional concepts to make the valuation more comprehensive and reflective of the real situation. This means including monetary, ecological, and social dimensions.

8:28For the ecological aspects, This isn’t my area of expertise, but there are methodologies like environmental impact assessments and other ways to measure natural losses and damages. For the social side, ethnography plays a significant role. That’s what I’ve been doing in my work, listening to the community and documenting their experiences of losses and damages through in -depth, semi -structured interviews. Using these methods, I collect detailed information and analyze it to understand the broader impacts. It’s not about generating statistics or graphs, but rather using ethnographic techniques to grasp the human aspect of the issue. From these interviews, we derive qualitative insights into the value of these losses. While it’s not a numerical value, it provides a richer understanding of the affected community’s perspective. That’s fascinating.

9:19But what challenges have you encountered with this approach? One challenge is that economic valuation often struggles with ambiguity and subjectivity. For example, let’s say we’re valuing a tree. Each of us might perceive its value differently. Linda might see sentimental value in it. Daniel might think it’s unimportant, and I might value it for its shade. Another issue is that some things are simply incalculable. In Putamayo, for instance, there’s a significant Inga indigenous community in Mokoa. They spoke about sacred sites that were damaged after the landslide or affected by tourism. These sites hold immense spiritual value for them, and that’s not something you can quantify. Remember taking a course on environmental economics where we discussed methods for assessing economic value through resources. For instance, calculating the value of a forest by measuring how much CO2 it captures and comparing the cost of maintaining it versus exploiting it. Yes, I remember that after Mokwa disaster, I heard about someone who had planted many trees along the stream. Their properties suffered far less damage compared to the areas that were deforest.

10:34Those trees serve as a natural protection, which demonstrates the need to think about long -term strategies rather than short -term gains. Exactly. Those types of calculations are common. But often… they fail to consider long -term impacts, both environmental and economic. That’s a great point, but it seems like many environmental impact assessments remain overly qualitative, especially in industries like mining. What more effective alternatives exist to measure environmental and social impacts, and how has this evolved in recent years? Well, there’s been progress in response to critiques of traditional assessment methods. For instance, There’s a method called contingent valuation that involves directly asking communities about their willingness to pay to resolve an environmental issue or their minimum willingness to accept compensation for environmental damages. But this method isn’t always effective. When I tried applying it in my work, asking people about their willingness to pay, they responded, why should we pay? The state should compensate us. And they had a point.

11:41This is where integral valuation comes into play. It incorporates ethnographic and social science methods to assign value in ways that traditional economic models cannot. There are also other methodologies and matrices commonly used, such as those employed by Columbia’s Ministry of Environment. These tools attempt to integrate social aspects because, in the end, they are crucial for providing a more comprehensive valuation. However, it’s important to understand that these phenomena are inherently complex, much like the environment itself. In the master’s program, we often reference the concept developed by Augusto Angel Maya, one of the founders of the program and a prominent Colombian environmental thinker. He described the environment as a relationship between ecosystems and culture. From that relationship emerges everything we consider environmental. He emphasized that environmental issues are not limited to socioeconomic or sociopolitical concerns. They’re fundamentally about the interaction between ecosystems and culture. People often think of the environment in purely ecological terms, mountains, trees, forests, but it also encompasses social and economic elements. It’s about understanding that we, as human beings, are part of nature, not separate from it. That’s a beautiful way to put it. How do you see this idea influencing policy or initiatives in Colombia today? In our current context and with the current government, there’s a bit of

13:12an opening for organizations like the one I work with, which embraces a critical perspective on environmental issues. This is why they hired me, because they recognized the limitations of traditional economic valuation methods used by entities like ANLA, National Authority for Environmental Licenses. They understood that something more was needed. That’s excellent. Speaking of growth and development, just recently the Nobel Prize in Economics was awarded to researchers studying why some countries grow more than others and the origins of inequality. Why do you think there is such resistance to changing the way we measure development, growth, and well -being, especially when it’s traditionally tied to GDP? This ties back to what we discussed earlier about economic models. Economics, like any science, has schools of thought. The dominant one is the neoclassical school, which places significant emphasis on economic growth. The key indicator for many public policies is GDP, which measures the total goods and services produced in a country within a year.

14:18However, there’s been growing criticism of GDP as a measure of well -being. New indicators are being developed to incorporate social variables, like unpaid domestic work, often carried out by women. Certainly. This approach includes a feminist perspective highlighting activities like domestic work and caregiving, which have historically been unrecognized and unpaid, even though they contribute significantly to the economy.

14:52People who directly contribute to GDP, like entrepreneurs, depend on this unpaid labor. Recognizing these overlooked variables is crucial for creating more inclusive economic models. That’s such an important point. You have also mentioned how the Global South is trying to reshape these narratives. Could you share your perspective on how Latin America is redefining concepts of growth and development? Absolutely. In the Global South, particularly in Latin America, there’s an effort to rethink these ideas. Institutions like CIPOL, Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean are leading the way in questioning traditional development narratives. For example, the term developing countries is widely used, but its implications haven’t been deeply explored.

15:41In industrialized nations, development has historically revolved around the production of goods and services. Meanwhile, in Latin America, our history of colonization disrupted ancestral practices that didn’t prioritize accumulation. This raises critical questions. What do we mean by development? Is it tied to industrialization and accumulation, or can it be rooted in the unique knowledge and values of each community? It’s time to challenge the global economic framework that dismisses anything outside of industrialized models as underdeveloped.

16:16There are aspects of these discussions that I find particularly interesting. Take Argentina, for example, where President Javier Maileai a very radical figure, has sparked intense debates, especially on social and gender issues. He’s implementing policies that I find unique, even experimental. What’s distinctive about economics is that its laboratory is society itself. Unlike natural sciences, where experiments are conducted in controlled environments, economics implements policies and observes their outcomes in real life. Fascinating way to put it. Can you tell us more about Millet’s approach and its implications?

16:56He’s trying to drastically reduce the size of the state, aiming for the economy and market to regulate themselves. From the beginning, he announced plans to eliminate several ministries, arguing that sectors like sports and education should operate independently under market forces, driven by supply and demand. He identifies as an anarcho -capitalist, anarcho because he advocates for a minimal state, and capitalist because he believes in the market’s ability to regulate everything. While this is an interesting experiment, it raises significant concerns. For example, while he may have managed to reduce inflation, it’s essential to ask, at what cost? That’s a critical question. What have been the consequences of these policies? From what I have observed, poverty has increased significantly, by nearly 50%. Additionally, he’s cut funding for basic scientific research. arguing that research should have immediate practical applications. Institutions like CONICET, a major research hub in Latin America, have been particularly affected. Scientists and academics even wrote an open letter opposing these cuts, emphasizing the long -term importance of research for economic and social growth. Millet has also removed subsidies for essential utilities like electricity and water. Essentially, he’s letting the economy run on its own to see what happens. But again, the question is, at what expense? And that highlights a common challenge.

18:26When the market is left entirely unregulated, inequalities tend to grow. Those who have more gain more, while those with less fall farther behind. Exactly. That’s why contrasting approaches, like those of Colombia’s current president, Gustavo Petro, are interesting. Petro advocates for the state to take a more active role, reaching historically neglected areas to provide education, health care, and other essential services. It’s a stark contrast to Miley I’s approach. It’s fascinating that both leaders are economists, yet they take such different approaches. Yes, it shows how economics is deeply embedded in society and can be interpreted in various ways. What’s crucial is having decision -makers who understand environmental issues. For instance, President Petro has an environmental perspective, having pursued studies in the field, though he didn’t graduate because he resisted incorporating statistical methods like econometrics into his thesis. Economics, after all, is historically a social science.

19:31The integration of statistics has formalized it, but Petro’s stance highlights the importance of diverse approaches to understanding economic phenomena. That’s a valuable insight. It also underscores the need for collaboration across disciplines, something Petro has been criticized for and not always achieving. Building on what you have mentioned about the economic growth and environment responsibility, we often hear critics of GDP as an incomplete measure. For example, it often ignores inequality and environmental damage. Meanwhile, wealthier countries tend to externalize environmental costs to developing countries. What changes could make economic growth fairer and more equitable in a globalized world?

20:17This is a crucial issue. I recently attended the COP Biodiversity and Climate Change Conference in Cali, where this topic was discussed. The debate focused on the disproportionate responsibility that certain countries have for emissions. Countries like the United States, Australia, And many in Europe contribute far more to global pollution than nations like Colombia or others in Latin America, Africa, or Asia. So the question is, how do we address this imbalance? Their responsibility cannot be the same as ours. But what about the role of multinational corporations? They often operate in developing countries with minimal oversight. That’s another layer of complexity.

20:59Many multinational corporations exploit resources in our territories under the guise of development. For example, in Colombia, Canadian mining companies extract our minerals, creating significant environmental and social conflicts. Take Mocoa, for instance. There’s a Canadian company, LiberoCobra, that’s been eyeing the region for years because the area is rich in minerals like copper and nickel, what they call green transition minerals. With the push for energy transitions, their interest has only intensified. It’s created deep divisions.

21:33Many people oppose these activities, but local power structures, such as mayors, are often co -opted by these companies, exacerbating social tensions. This continues the historical pattern of treating our territories as resources to be exploited. While it’s essential for communities to adopt more sustainable practices, the greater responsibility lies with these companies in their home countries. which must rethink their consumption and production models. But changing habits isn’t easy. How can individuals start addressing these challenges? Our habits are deeply cultural and challenging to change. However, every small action counts. Even something as simple as recycling contributes to the broader goal of sustainability.

22:18In Bogota, for example, there’s been a surge in urban farming initiatives. People are composting organic kitchen waste. and using it in community gardens. These small changes help shift mindsets and encourage more sustainable practices. But the most difficult shift is moving away from a culture of accumulation. Even those with strong environmental awareness feel the temptation to acquire more. A car, gadget, something new. It’s normal, but finding balance is key. Living with less and adopting sustainable alternatives, like cycling instead of driving, can make a real difference.

22:54That’s such a crucial point. Speaking of the energy transition, what about the exploitation of resources for the so -called green energy? Isn’t there a risk of repeating the same mistakes of over -extraction? The energy transition has a significant downside. Resources for renewable technologies like solar panels and batteries still rely on extractive practices. And in many cases, the recycling of these materials hasn’t been prioritized. For example, in Australia, there’s been an accumulation of unused solar panels because recycling systems are insufficient.

23:28Instead of addressing this, the focus shifts to mining new resources, even exploring deep -sea mining. This approach risks creating one environmental issue for another. Yeah, so it’s essentially the same capitalistic logic applied to renewable energy. Exactly. Many companies involved in the green transition still operate under the same frameworks of capital accumulation and exploitation. Without systemic changes, we risk falling into the same patterns, albeit under a different name. That’s a way to transit to a growing discourse around economic models like the growth. Economists like Kohei Sato from Japan and Mariana Mazzucato from Italy are gaining traction with ideas that challenge the prevailing economic framework. Do you think concepts like degrowth could generally benefit both society and the environment? Absolutely. Degrowth is a critical concept to explore, especially in the context of transitions, whether energy or agri -food transitions. The idea of transition itself is positive because it implies a shift away from existing unsustainable models. For instance, renewable energy projects in low -income communities can be transformative. providing opportunities for self -sufficiency. But we must be cautious about how these transitions are managed.

24:51Take energy transitions, for example. While renewable energy can empower communities, the capitalist market tends to co -opt these initiatives. Terms like green or sustainable are often used to commercialize solutions that may not address deeper structural issues. Similarly, in the agri -food sector, there’s increasing interest in ecological farming practices. While agroecology promotes sustainability, large corporations that previously sold agrochemicals are now marketing green products under certifications that small and medium farmers can’t afford. But there are alternatives that can empower smaller producers. For example, participatory guarantee systems, SPGs, are a promising alternative. These allow communities to self -certify their ecological practices, bypassing the expensive and often exclusionary formal certification processes.

25:45These alternatives are beginning to gain official recognition from governments and institutions. This ties into the broader conversation about degrowth. By challenging the idea that growth is always necessary, we can reimagine economies that prioritize well -being over accumulation. That’s powerful, but degrowth can be a controversial concept. What challenges do you see in promoting it? The biggest challenge is cultural. Our societies are deeply conditioned to equate development with growth and accumulation. The person with three apartments and four cars is seen as successful.

26:22But is that really development? Degrowth invites us to rethink this narrative. Take Colombia as an example. Irene Velez, the Minister of Mines, mentioned degrowth about six months into her term, and the backlash was immediate. Critics claimed she didn’t understand economics. and some even called for her resignation. It shows how deeply ingrained the growth mindset is. It’s almost existential, isn’t it? These are philosophical questions at their core. They force us to ask, what is the purpose of life? Some philosophical traditions argue that happiness is the ultimate goal. But what makes us happy? The prevailing narrative suggests that happiness comes from having more things. But what if that’s not true?

27:06Degrowth challenges us to consider these questions. It’s not just about economic or environmental changes. It’s about rethinking how we live and what we value. It’s exciting to see these conversations gaining traction. 20 years ago, this kind of discussion wasn’t as common, right? Back then, there were few platforms for these ideas. Today, more people are questioning traditional models, and spaces like this podcast are essential for fostering those conversations. Another critical issue tied to this is climate change. Its impacts are far -reaching, affecting sectors like agriculture and infrastructure. Recent studies like one from the University of Chicago highlight how traditional models underestimate the long -term cost of climate change. From your perspective, how can valuation methodologies better reflect this impact? This connects strongly to my work. Climate change has profound… long -term effects that aren’t always visible immediately. Losses and damages extend over decades, which is why we need methodologies that capture this complexity. For instance, after the 2017 Mokoa disaster, the government provided immediate aid, but it didn’t account for long -term consequences like mental health issues or cultural shifts. Relocated rural residents had to adapt to urban lifestyles, losing their connection to the land. These changes created conflicts and deeply affected well -being. So, traditional valuation methods fall short in addressing

28:38these broader impacts. That’s why integral valuation is so important. It combines economic, ecological, and social dimensions, offering a more holistic understanding. For example, mental health is often overlooked in traditional valuations, yet it’s a significant consequence of climate change. After disasters like the Mokoa landslide, the stress of relocation and adapting to new environments led to increased anxiety and depression among affected communities. This is why incorporating social sciences into environmental evaluations is crucial. Through methods like ethnographic studies and community engagement, we can better understand the full scope of these impacts. That’s a compelling perspective. Could you share more about the practical challenges you have faced in implementing these methodologies? One of the challenges is addressing ecosystem -specific issues. For instance, in Puerto Assis, a town south of Mocoa, the problem isn’t a past disaster, but the current exploitation of wetlands and rivers. People build on wetlands, causing flooding and other environmental problems. To address this, it’s essential to consider the ecological dimension in planning. This includes understanding the role of biological corridors and using tools like territorial planning frameworks to determine safe distances for construction near rivers.

30:03Unfortunately, these frameworks are not widely applied in practice, not always. While plans like Colombia’s Plains de Ornaminoterritorial, territorial development plans, exist, they’re often ignored, especially in vulnerable ecosystems. This leads to high risk situations and unnecessary environmental degradation. Not prioritizing prevention over reaction is a recurring issue. Governments often focus on recovery after disasters instead of investing in mitigation or adaptation. For instance, it’s easy to declare certain areas as off limits for construction, but without offering viable alternatives, the problem persists. Investing in adaptation and mitigation measures It can reduce the need for subsidies or rebuilding after disasters. That ties back to the importance of education. Environmental education is a cornerstone of these efforts. By teaching communities about ecosystem cycles and the consequences of their actions, we can empower them to make more sustainable choices. This education should start early in schools and local communities. ensuring that people understand what can and cannot be done in certain ecosystems. Ultimately, this not only benefits the environment, but also saves governments significant costs in recovery and restoration efforts. William, thank you very much for joining us today. This conversation has been incredible and enlightening, especially for those of us

31:35coming from the natural sciences. Your insights have been very valuable. As we wrap up, what message would you like to leave? To our listeners, I encourage you to reflect on your daily habits. Ask yourself, what am I investing my time and money in? How does my work or lifestyle impact the environment and ecosystem around me? It’s crucial to understand the ecosystems we live in, their risks, and how we can contribute to positive change. Each small action, whether recycling or adopting more sustainable habits, plays a part in mitigating climate change. Thank you again, Julian, for sharing your expertise. Thank you for having me. This has been a truly enriching conversation. Today’s episode explored the delicate balance between economic progress and environment preservation. We hope it inspired you to think about how individual actions and systemic changes can align to create a more sustainable future.

32:31Don’t forget to follow us on social media and share this podcast with friends. If you have been inspired by our mission, consider supporting us through PayPal via our website. Every contribution helps us to keep this project alive and growing. Stay curious, stay inspired, and always seek the human side behind every discovery. Thanks for being part of our journey. Until the next time.