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Transcript

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0:01Who are the characters behind science? This is Science Behind the Glass, illuminating the human side. In this podcast, we unveil the human side of laboratories and science. Scientists share personal experiences and we discuss their meanings from different perspectives and fields of research. Welcome to Science Behind the Glass, illuminating the human side. The podcast that dives into the intersection between conservation and the characters that allow the survival of our natural world.

0:32Today, we are privileged to host one of the most influential conservationists in Africa, Rachel Ashego. Rachel is a Nigerian conservationist and the founder of the Southwest and Niger Delta Forest Project, a grassroots -focused NGO. She launched in 2012 to protect Nigeria’s wildlife and forests. For the past 20 years, Rachel has been at the forefront of species conservation, working under some of the most challenging conditions.

1:02battling habitat destruction, social insecurity, and human -wildlife conflict. Rachel Starla’s work has been instrumental in protecting endangered species like the critical endangered Niger Delta Red Colobus monkey, one of the world’s 25 most endangered primates. She also expanded her efforts to other wildlife through advocacy and education, engaging local communities to create sustainable conservation zones. Her leadership has earned her numerous awards, including the 2020 Wiley Award, often called the Green Oscar, and the 2022 National Geographic Buffet Award for Conservation Leadership in Africa. Rachel, it’s a pleasure having you here. Thank you for accepting this invitation. And to start, would you like to share with us what inspired you to work in conservation and what is the pivotal experience? that ignite your passion for nature and conservation? Thank you very much, Lina. Thank you, Daniel. And thank you for having me. Yeah, so what inspired me to join conservation? I think my journey into conservation wasn’t exactly the traditional, you know, have an interest and then join conservation.

2:22It wasn’t sort of like straightforward, but it’s… I don’t want to call it an happenstance, but it was really very much a coincidence because I graduated with a degree in public administration as my first degree. I didn’t have any contact with wild areas or the wildernesses, and I basically didn’t have a clue about conservation or biodiversity or nature growing up either. So I was the first graduate just like… every other young Nigerian at the time and just looking for a good job after school. And then, yeah, I found out that there was like an internship position. I would apply for anything. By the way, I would apply for anything and any opportunity I advertised or opened up.

3:16So without really caring much whether I qualified for it or not, that was the level of my desperation. And so I applied for an internship position that opened up in a conservation organization. Little did I know anything about conservation. So I was very, like I said, my interest was just getting a job and really not, I really, I’m not sure I even understood what the meaning of internship was at the time, whether it was paid or unpaid.

3:46I really didn’t know much about what internship was. I was just interested in getting a job. And for me, it was just another opportunity. And so I applied and that’s how I got into this internship position in the National Conservation Organization. And really, that’s what mattered for me, because during that time, I learned so much. It was a hands -on experience that would forever change the way I… perceived or I saw my country or I saw what was happening around me and it was really eye -opening to say the least and then from then onwards it for me was a situation where there was I could see for myself that there was a problem and whether it was an interest on my own part or not it was just like actually wired naturally to be like a problem solver kind of like i just i just get towards this like that stuff sort of i think really that’s how i found myself here and then uh for me was i i think i didn’t have any clue at the time how enormous the problem is and how complex it is i thought it was simple and straightforward and if somebody could or should do this or that then the problem will be solved and And it was in that naivety I dived into conservation. And,

5:17yeah. That was quite inspirational. Sometimes we don’t even imagine where we’re going to end up. Hats off live. Yeah, that’s right. And from those early days till now, you have worked closely with diverse human communities, bridging gaps between science, policy, and conservation. And also… getting involved with everyday lives of these communities. How do you ensure that the work you do remains accessible and relevant to these communities? I think it’s one of the greatest privileges I’ve had in the course of my career in conservation is really working with local communities. And I think the reason I call it a privilege is because anyone should let you into their space, into their home, for you to be able to sort of bring not essentially a new idea, but a different perspective to how they do things, I think we should really regard it as an honor. So for me, it’s a great honor that these communities accepted me and were able to let me into their space and to share their ideas.

6:35I really wouldn’t call it a situation where I was Bringing them to an understanding of the importance of conservation. I think we go to a place where I go to a place where it was important that I also understood their own perspective about how they use nature and for what purposes. And so and to also share from my own experiences or from my own knowledge, as little as it as it is on. how best it is nature can be conserved or nature can be sustainably used to benefit them and to also be preserved for future generations.

7:18So that’s just like one of, like I said, one of the greatest privileges of my life to have an opportunity to be in that space, to be able to be in diverse communities and be able to share knowledge, share experiences and share skill sets with them. to learn from them, and then equally they being accepting of me, were able to learn from me. How do I ensure that the work remains accessible and relevant to the communities it serves? Like I said, the fact that the work that I’m doing with communities is built together with the communities, it essentially means that I don’t have… I don’t have like, I can’t claim ownership of the work. So it’s essentially their work as much as I’ve helped to also help them to contribute to it. So I think that as long as those communities remain, the work remains accessible to everyone who would seek to identify or to… build upon their own knowledge of conservation.

8:31Yeah, I was mentioning that sometimes it’s tricky to convince the communities to work in conservation because of the interest that they have or maybe because they don’t have the knowledge about why it’s important to conserve the nature and actually because, well, it depends on each community. From one to other one, it can be like, well, they don’t relate really with nature and why it should be important to care about that. Having said that, how do you navigate the tension between economic growth and environmental protection in your work? And what strategies have you found effective in advocating for conservancy and sustainability and sustainable development practices in Nigeria?

9:20I think, to be honest, if we’re honest with ourselves, it will always be difficult to navigate that tightrope of the need for economic growth and development and nature conservation or biodiversity conservation, if you prefer. It will always be challenging because population keeps growing. And especially in Nigeria, because Nigeria is Africa’s most populous nation. And a huge percentage of that population live below the poverty line.

9:55And so it’s always going to be a tricky conversation to have. It’s never going to be easy. But it’s one that must be had because more nature destruction would invariably lead to more poverty because there are so many people whose lives are really dependent on nature. So the more you use biodiversity unsustainably, the more you’re going to drive people into poverty. And I think people understanding that correlation is very important in understanding also the importance that conservation plays in economic development. So I think, or I believe really that they are intertwined and it’s not, while it’s not an easy, there is no, in a way for you to best manage both situations or bring both situations into a particular space. I also believe that from the experiences of my own work, it is really possible to have economic growth and development coexist with biodiversity conservation.

11:06So it’s possible, but the approach bringing this to… shall I say, requirement in the same place is really to work on the end with people who live in that same environment, in the same environment where you’re trying to conserve. You find the solutions together. I always say there is no one -size -fits -all. Every solution must be tailored to the size where you’re working. And so I think in terms of economic growth and development, it also needs to be tailored to the sites where it is required. So while you are looking at conserving that area, you are also considering the livelihood of the people who depend on it and overall the national economic growth and its development as well. Yeah, that’s right. And actually, it’s kind of hard to make people understand that this doesn’t have to be a dichotomy, that you can also have good economic growth and conserve nature at the same time. And because of that, it’s also hard to get resources and grants and this kind of thing. So how do you overcome these limited resources or public awareness? that these kind of organizations need funding? Well, I don’t

12:37think we’ve overcome that yet. And I truly think it really remains a constant struggle to get, you know, sufficient, to really sufficiently be able to get adequate resources that would drive the solutions that you seek to bring. to whether to a site or to a group of people. How we navigate it, I think, is by taking one step at a time. Sometimes when you don’t have everything you need at that particular point in time, I have a principle to make the most of what you have at your disposal at that point in time.

13:20I don’t think there is ever any organization, institution, nation or government or people that would say they have everything they need. I think there is always going to be a need. And I think we are always going to have to make the best of resources at every point in time. Sometimes may not be material resources. Sometimes it’s time resource. Sometimes it’s manpower as a resource.

13:50So often so there is always a limit or there is always an insufficiency. in some of these areas. And in understanding that also helps you to best manage what’s at your disposal at that point in time. So while we probably may want to do, for example, an option A, which is a grand, bigger, or wider scale, or create a wider scale impact, we could actually create option B and C that divides this solution. into two hours and then, you know, start driving that solution one step at a time where you are able to at least accomplish B and with the possibility of accomplishing C inside. And so I think it’s taught me a lot along the way. Initially, I bemoaned it a lot.

14:48I actually, I complained a lot in the beginning because I didn’t understand that. It’s always going to be a factor. It’s always going to be an issue not to have all of the resources you need. And when I had a better understanding, it made it a lot easier to plan better and, you know, work within the means that’s available to us. Yeah, that’s right. And that’s something very tricky that all the NGOs and yours. especially with the competition that they have with the economic role in Nigeria has, like trying to be aware, like, hey, this is important, but then the other side of the road is like the oil extraction and exploration, and then they support all this, the government, at least in Colombia, that happens, it’s less now, but they support all these projects, but then… The left side, all the relevance of the NGOs that are working hard to protect or working with the communities to protect biodiversity.

15:57So it’s always a really challenging one, right? And can you discuss the role of women in the local communities where you work? How does empowering women contribute to the success of conservation projects? And what initiatives have you implemented to involve more women in the environmental stewardship? I think the role of women is really multifaceted. And I think women don’t get enough credit for how much they play a leading role in either fighting climate change or conserving biodiversity. And I think one of the most important things is that, especially for me being a woman and leading all this effort, is that I can actually really recognize that the women in this community are valuable resource and they are valuable not just in within their community in catering for nurturing the children and you know keeping the home together but much more than that they have a wider societal rule so more quiet than the male but they have a wider societal rule than every other group in the community And so I think one of the important things I always say is women are by nature nurturers.

17:21So they would nurture whatever you give to them. And by that very nature, they are more inclined to do better as conservation stewards than their male counterparts. And this is not a bias because I’m female, but it’s really the reality of what’s on ground. And I’ll give you an example. In many communities where I work, you’re more likely to find women at home. So there will be more women in the communities than the men because most of the men will go out to the fields and looking for better life for their families. And some of them live for the cities. And sometimes you find mostly women in these communities than you find male. They hold the ways in this community during this time. They provide the food for the children. And many times they carry out all the essential roles within the community, like giving training, whether formal or informal, in the informal setting within those communities. And because of that, I think it is not an exaggeration to call them the lifeline. of every community because really they really serve as the intermediary between male and the children. For us as an organization and also for me personally, I think one of the best ways to involve women is in education, is

18:56in outreach and increasing awareness about community and also in a community engagement as well. Recognizing their role as being in the intermediary between, like I said, the men and the children means that they are able to pass communication across to both the younger generation and to their male counterparts more faster and more easier than any group would. So that’s one of the first areas in which we involve them. sustainable livelihood practices women are so much welcoming are so much more open -minded to receive these new ideas than their male counterparts because um most of the time sustainable livelihood practices don’t bring in huge incomes or the men would want like they would they would be expecting like big incomes and all of that but those big incomes and don’t don’t roll in exactly like in the beginning of implementing that kind of social enterprise initiative. It comes in gradually to start out and experimenting with these sustainable livelihood practices. But most of the time, you find a lot of women, most of the time, 80 % of

20:27these beneficiaries or these participants are women. started out, and the men are beginning to see the returns from their investments, whether it’s in labor or in what they put in. They are eager to now turn to it and ask that they also want to be part of these sustainable livelihood practices. And they end up doing it in the end. So the women really end up being the pacesetters for projects, livelihood projects, so to say.

20:59I find women really indispensable in communicating to communities about conservation. I find them indispensable in implementing new ideas that would bring about, you know, better use of biodiversity. And so, yeah, they are irreplaceable in these landscapes for sure. Yeah, that’s really important because they are the… pioneers that, as you said, establish everything. And then once they start working, the other counterparts, male counterparts, start working together. So that’s, we should recognize and empower women because they’re essential for these tasks everywhere, I could say. Yeah, exactly. And precisely talking about this. these biases that exist for women or working against women. Can you share some of your personal experiences being a woman in conservation that may challenge you in this way and how you overcome them? I think it’s difficult to talk about challenges because sometimes I’m one to believe that most of the challenges I face, especially working in Nigeria, are not unique to a particular gender.

22:26So whether you’re male or female, the fact that you’re trying to implement conservation in an area or in a country that has really high human population. It would be difficult anyways. I actually believe so that it wouldn’t matter whether you are male or female in this instance. It would be just as challenging. But on the part where it becomes peculiarly more challenging being a woman, I think it’s areas that has to do with the African society generally and their perception of what a woman’s role. or to be in the society.

23:10So at the time I set out, when I first became a conservationist, which is just about 20 years ago now, it was very, very unpopular for you to set off, graduate from the university as a young woman and then carry backpacks around and say you’re going to wild areas and inaccessible forests where there was no… phone network and all of that and say you’re working. So in fact, it sounded really ridiculous. And many times I hear people say, what’s that? I’m like, I’m a conservationist. I’m like, what’s that? And then, of course, family would put all this pressure on you. You’re out of school now. We’re expecting you to get a good job, get married, have kids.

24:02And so it’s the one year, two years, three years, then it’s five years and 10 years. And none of that is coming through. And people are beginning to think whether you’re okay or you’re right. So it’s not just even family. I mean, even in the same local communities where I work, I mean, I could be in a local community. hoping that, well, we are about to have a conversation about monkeys or conserving forests or something. And what they put on the conversation, the first topic for them on the conversation is, how come you’re here? Why are you not married? Are you married? Where are your children? And so even the people you’re coming there to engage with, for some reasons, you feel is very noble. They are more concerned about your personal life.

24:53And what you do with it just because you’re a woman. And I don’t believe they will ask a man that, of course, because they feel like a woman living at home and coming into these remote communities. I mean, they just they are just curious. I mean, I know they don’t mean any harm, but certainly it’s because they also believe that the role of a woman is to be home and taking care of the kids, not traveling far away from home and trying to tell people what they should do with their forest. It’s also the issues, there are issues of insecurity in many of these areas. And sometimes it’s pretty much unsafe for a man, let alone a woman, out of place to being harassed, sometimes sexually, or to being disrespected. So yeah, there was always me facing those risks. And all of those really were reality. The good thing about it is that with time, some of these challenges or what you want to call it, some of it started to really dissipate quite gradually over time.

26:06Like I said, now you have more people and there’s this more societal consciousness about how women can be allowed to do certain… jobs that are male dominated, how that’s becoming a bit more normal now in our society compared to 20 years ago. There is a bit more awareness about sexual harassment, even amongst authorities. Authorities are willing to take such reports seriously. And so, yeah, there is just this growing consciousness within society that’s made things a bit easier right now and for females to work more freely and with more dignity. Like I said earlier, there was just a lot of disrespect, even from officials, government officials themselves, whom you would approach with conservation solution ideas or proposal and stuff. And so, but now there is a bit more dignity. And I don’t know if I’m the only one who is just observing that because I’ve kind of like become more advanced in my work and I’ve gained a lot of experience to help me navigate these issues. And I don’t know whether that has informed my view of how things are now.

27:32So I wouldn’t say that for someone who is young, also starting up a young 20 something year old. Also starting up and just learning these things that these issues exist. I don’t know if the person will see it from a different lens or is experiencing it at their own, where their own situation is at that time, at whatever stage they are in life. But for me, like I said, it’s just. Not as bad as before. It’s very, very minimal now than it used to be. So certainly, whether it’s because things have changed or because I’ve grown a little bit wiser and more advanced, I don’t know what. But probably one of those reasons might have informed why things do look better now than before. Let’s hope it’s a general trend.

28:30Yeah, very challenging. And dinner conservation affects all the aspects of your life. So how do you balance your personal life and you still keep committed to continue with your duty? That’s a good question. I don’t know how best to answer it because I actually think that every stage in life is different. I think that in the early stage of my career, I was so, oh, I’m still very much introverted, but then I was very, very introverted to the point I was really happy to just be in the forest. I didn’t really care much about having like a personal life. My personal life was just in books and walking through the forest and having my dog. And, you know, that was the best. I mean, for me, that was living and that was life. And I didn’t care much about being in town, having a phone or having social media or stuff like that. I don’t care much about that even now.

29:34But of course, certainly things have changed because we have all these stakeholder engagements I have to relate with. There’s a lot of external relations that goes on in the course of my work. So I can’t go hiding out in the forest like I used to. So definitely there’s a lot of, I’m more in touch with the world now than I used to be. So like I said, anyways, to really answer the question, well, I think the best balance really is to understand why you do what you do.

30:10I think there is no way you’re going to love your job so much that you won’t get to a point, to a breaking point when the challenges is very hard. So definitely there were times, many times in the course of this 20 years when I felt like I need to find another work. I need to find a life. I need to get out of this. So many times I was in that hole, in that dark hole where I didn’t see a way out. I didn’t see the light.

30:42And those periods are always very dark. And it’s really hard at that time to give yourself. sort of like a pep talk or get yourself out ordinarily. And that’s why I always cherish my co -workers, colleagues. And at every point in time, it’s the people who you have around you, who work with you. Sometimes they give you the best encouragement you couldn’t even give to yourself. And I’ve heard, if I start naming names now, to just take the old day. But I’ve known colleagues who would just be like, you can’t do this. You can’t quit.

31:24You have to keep going and we can’t let you quit. So, yeah, they were just having those kind of people around you doing the same work just like you. And you know they are not just saying it because they are your friends or they are your family, but they are saying it because they are in the same situation as you. And they understand what you’re going through. But at the same time, they are letting you know that if you quit now, you’re quitting on a lot of people. There’s so much, there is just so much that is hanging on you not quitting. So when they remind you of why you need to keep going, you’re forced to bring yourself back up. One that was very, very recent, two, three, no, two years ago. We lost a colleague in the line of duty. One of my team members was killed. I was really devastated.

32:19I really felt like throwing in the towel and ending it all. I didn’t bargain for anybody to die in doing conservation. And so I put my life on the line, but I don’t expect to put other people’s lives on the line. And I felt like it was very hard for me to take that. I remember that I was so inspired by my team members. I thought everyone else on the team would just be like, we quit, we’re going back home. We didn’t expect that somebody’s going to die in this and all of that. But just the fact that they didn’t seem to want to go anywhere. They just really felt more there was just this resolve that this work must go on. They just didn’t, they even saw it as a reason to keep going. And for me, it was like, it was an inspiration. And it wasn’t just them. It was also the local community we’re working with. I also thought they were going to turn their backs on us and just be like, we don’t care about conservation. Somebody in the community just died and blah, blah, blah. And I thought that would have been the line, but instead they were like. We want to pick up the pieces of everything that was torn down when this crisis happened. And we are even going to invest ourselves in that. We’re going to invest

33:49our resources in putting things back together. I mean, how do you see this and not feel encouraged or inspired to stand up to get back on your feet? Because everyone else assumed that I wasn’t working alone. I’m not in this all by myself. And even though, yes, indeed, I didn’t bargain for anybody to die, certainly everyone recognized that the person who died shouldn’t die for nothing. He should die knowing that he did leave a great legacy and that legacy lived on. And so, yeah, and that was just, you know, what can I say?

34:30It was not something you can do for yourself for sure, no matter how strong you are. So coming back to what I said earlier, it’s just important to really work genuinely and know that the people around you are just in it just as much as you are. And then when you lose courage, you look to them for the inspiration you need to carry on. That’s amazing, Rachel. And it’s important to highlight that the conservationists are always in threat. for the activities that you do for protecting biodiversity. And that’s something that is not recognized. That’s something that should be highlighted. And all the hard work that you do, that your teamwork does, is something that has to be highlighted because you are in the front line putting your life at risk and your team is also doing the same just to keep this going, right? To protect nature and biodiversity.

35:36Yeah, many people think that conservationists are just like protesting outside a government building in a big city or something like that. But this gives us and gives everybody perspective that actually there are people putting their life in the line to protect the nature. And for our listeners who want you to get involved, who wants to get involved and connected with your organization and with houses like you, what advice would you give them? How can someone without a background in conservation or science still make a difference, although you already make a big difference? You are the perfect example.

36:24But how can people get involved? How can people make changes? Sometimes people get just frustrated or don’t know how to help or don’t know how to get involved or in contact or make a change. I actually think, and that’s a really good question, because I believe that conservation is everyone’s responsibility. It’s not for a group of people.

36:50It’s not for a group of people termed conservationists. I think basically that work tied to, at some point, we need to call everyone conservationists so that they realize they’re responsible for it just as much as we are. And that’s actually the reason, because I know this now, and that’s one of the major drives we’re having recently.

37:15in my organization to increase public participation in the conservation processes, because I believe there’s a role for everyone to play. If you can get out in the field and do what we’re doing, there are several ways in which you can lend your voice to advocate for increased protection of wildlife, of their habitats. There are ways in which you can write. I mean, I believe that we’ve all come to this world with a certain skill.

37:51At least we can talk. So yeah, there is always something we bring to the table. I think that’s the point I’m trying to make here. Everyone has got something they can bring to the table because a lot of people are quick to say, well, I don’t know what I can do. And some people, I’m too young. Other people, I’m too old. Other people, I’m too busy. other people i’m actually a banker and that’s the work i do for a living preservation affects us all nature affects us all as long as we work on this earth i think um the fact that it affects us all means that we all have a responsibility to do it so like i said you can always get a pen and a paper and write or you can send an email to somebody in authority um you can you can tweet or post messages on the media of why this is important to you and how this can be why it’s needful. You can report wildlife crime as you see it, when you see it.

38:58So there are different ways. Recently, I was sharing with a group of students that conservation is the most versatile profession in the world. So you can be an environmental journalist, you can be an environmental criminologist, you can use the degree in teaching to be a conservation educator, you can be your legal degree to be an advocate. So there is actually almost every sphere of life that can be brought into conservation and you could do that. you could carve a niche for yourself and do that very well. And I think that, like I said earlier, it’s every one of us, our role, the person who loves you. Like, for example, this podcast is making use of what?

39:52The web is making use of the internet, is making use of technology tools for us to bring this conversation to a wider audience. So it’s a tool. It’s something that’s also making the knowledge, to get the knowledge out there that certain things are very useful and needful to be done now or actions that should be taken immediately for us to end the onslaught on our nature or to reduce to the barest minimum. every attack on biodiversity across the world everyone should get on board on this I mean nobody should be left out in any ways nobody that’s true and yeah thank you yes thank you it has been so inspiring thank you for sharing all these experiences with us and Please send us the links that you consider. We can share in our webpage in a way that we can support you or listeners can support you to support your organization too. And then we are going to spread the word in Spanish and in English.

41:03Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure. Thank you. It has been a pleasure having you here. It’s so inspirational. And thank you because I know that it’s quite late there and you are really busy. But thank you for making this space and the effort to having this interview. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Linda. It’s a pleasure. This episode was inspired by the unwavering dedication of those who safeguard nature. Rachel’s journey reminds us that conservation isn’t just about protecting wildlife. It’s about resilient communities, sustainable solutions, and shared responsibility.

41:41We hope this conversation has deepened your appreciation for the balance between progress and preservation and how each of us can help to protect our ecosystems. Remember that this podcast is independently produced and edited by your host. With the invaluable support of our dedicated technical director, Rafael Giordano, and the original music by our colleague and friend, Bernardo Agui. Stay connected on Instagram, X, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And visit our website for updates and stories. Don’t forget to subscribe and share this podcast with your friends and colleagues to amplify these essential narratives. If you are moved by our mission, we invite you to make a contribution via PayPal. Simply click the Support Us button in our website. Your support is vital for keeping this project thriving. Thanks for listening.

42:34to keep exploring, pushing and protecting our natural world. Until next time!