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Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors, especially in names. Click any timestamp to jump to that moment in the audio.

0:01Who are the characters behind science? This is Science Behind the Glass, illuminating the human side. In this podcast, we unveil the human side of laboratories and science. Scientists share personal experiences and we discuss their meanings from different perspectives and fields of research. Every two weeks, a language dies with its last speaker. When a language disappears, we don’t just lose words, lose stories that cannot be translated. Medicines that have no other name.

0:33Ways of loving, greeting, and understanding the universe that exists nowhere else on earth. Yawa, thank you for accepting this invitation as we’re having the glass. It’s a pleasure, it’s an honor having you here. We can’t wait to hear about you. So please introduce yourselves, tell us about you, your background. Tell us anything, okay. I’m Yawa, we’ll be talking, that’s my name.

1:00I live in a little community called Waniomata, in a place called Lower Hutt, which is in New Zealand, for those of you who don’t know, we’re Waniomata in Lower Hutt. Hello. I am Māori, which is the indigenous culture here in New Zealand, and I come from the tribes of Ngāti Rua Pani. which has just had a formal apology from the government for its breaches of our treaty settlement, for breaches of the treaty, but also from the tribes of Te Atiawa and from Maetūhoe, which is also by Matiu. Excellent. Can you tell us a little bit more about the maris and the treaty that they have with the government, with the New Zealand Government for Aotearoa? So Māori have been here for a long time. By 1840 in our country, a lot of these British sailors and whalers had come to New Zealand. And in 1840, there was a treaty. We call it the Treaty of Waitangi.

2:19It was settled or written between the British and Māori, so between our chiefs and the representatives of the Crown. In that treaty, there’s a lot of misconception about the treaty because there’s different interpretations, I should say. There’s the Treaty of Waitangi and Pētiriti of Waitangi.

2:45But essentially, from Māori perspective, it was about the lawlessness of the British in our country and a way to, I guess, encourage the British to take care of their own people and control their people. That was part of it. But essentially, we have a Treaty of Waitangi that was put in place as a way for us to live together in this country in harmony and in reciprocity with each other. So that was signed in 1840. We have a person in our family who’s about four or five generations before. It was actually one of the signatories of that treaty here in Wellington.

3:30He signed it in April 1840. But February the 6th is the day that’s generally celebrated here. And it’s called the Treaty of Waitangi because it was signed in Waitangi as a place, of course. And something that I was learning and it was interesting about this 3D is that actually the translation wasn’t really reliable translation.

3:58And the British were being truthful. So they were trying to take your sovereignty away. And that is the core of why I want to touch base about the languages. So can you tell us a little bit more about why the language is so important, and how these can be misunderstood. There’s a word, I guess, in the Treaty of Waitangi, which is the word kāwanatanga. And the way that word was actually, no, it wasn’t the kāwanatanga, it was rangatiratanga. And the way in which that word is interpreted from our lens as not the same way in which it’s interpreted from the British or from the English language. And that word has been, I guess, because of that misunderstanding, that word has created quite a division in New Zealand for the last 185 years about whether or not Māori ceded sovereignty or not. I don’t believe that my grandparents or my family who signed that treaty or any of those chiefs who signed that treaty at that time signed a treaty with the intention of giving anybody else power, sovereignty or anything like that. I don’t believe

5:31for one second that that was anything and I don’t believe that happened anywhere in the world. And when we think about New Zealand was probably the youngest country to be colonized. I think the practice of colonialism by that time was very well practiced. They were very good at it. So it was very, in my view, and I’m not a 3D expert at all, but it was very intentional what they were doing. And our understanding of that was just not the same. For me, that’s understanding words and meaning of words. I don’t think you can never really get the right meaning across languages and specific words. And so the essence of words and knowing language is quite critical to know because it’s not easily translatable across. as cultures. Yeah, it doesn’t have the same meaning. It doesn’t have the same meaning.

6:39That’s very interesting because the Marys are being one of the few leaders that have this sovereignty compared to other countries. For example, in Colombia, the indigenous groups and tribes, they have in the constitution they had the sovereign and you were the lands, but one thing is having it on the paper and the other one is like how it actually works. And something that is very interesting is that you were equals with the government after so many battles on setbacks and coming and forward and backwards, but then also Something that was interesting is that in 1980s, your language was starting to becoming extinct because the government was prohibiting in the schools. So the kids weren’t able to speak Maori language. But then it came as this big movement which your grandmother was part of that.

7:52And then you were one of the first ones. in this big room. Can you tell us a little bit more about the Kohanga Reo that is a language nest? Yeah, yeah. I think before I go there, I think it’s important to also point out that the intent of the Treaty of Waitangi was about a partnership, an equal partnership. But that’s not how Māori had felt. in the last 185 years and the amount of breaches that there have been. And if we have a look at our statistics and all of the health statistics, all of the justice statistics, Māori are so much more over -represented in those statistics.

8:46I think it’s important to point that out there. The notion and the intention of that Treaty of Whatangi, we are still at the other end of that. But yes, you’re right in regards, and yes, post -signing the Treaty, laws were put into place. For example, there was a law that came into place called the Tohunga Suppression Act, which was a law that stopped our elders and our, we call them Tohunga, but our experts in medicine. So we weren’t able to practice our own medicinal and healing practices because of this act. And if we go back to the Treaty of Waitangi, that was one thing that should have been protected, but laws continue to come in place to stop that from happening. The same thing with the schools.

9:45There was the Native Schools Act. it was put in place in 1868, I think. So only 28 years or so after the signing of the treaty. It meant that my grandmother, for example, who attended a native school, could not speak Māori. And so she would have to learn English and go home and speak Māori. And corporal punishment was… was allowed. And so these are some of the, I guess, some of the breaches in the very deliberate moves that took place as a practice of, I guess, of assimilation, you know, a practice of colonialism towards our people, even with the Triggy. But we were lucky in the 1960s, and I’m going to…

10:43talk about my grandmother, but I have to start with my grandfather. He was, he actually went to, I think it was a university in Chicago, and he did some study over there and he, I actually think he lived over there for a while. And one of the things he was really interested in was, his observations was how he would watch some of the children who were trilingual. they would be speaking in English and in their, and maybe not sure which American Indian tribes they were, but just this fascination of how these children could speak in three languages. And I think that sat with him for a long, long time. And when he came home, obviously in New Zealand as well at that time, there was the Māori language was on the brink of going. And there were some reports that were put out at that time that basically said if we don’t do anything about the language, we’re going to lose the language. And so the whole of New Zealand people, not the whole of New Zealand, but people who were interested in language revitalisation came together. There were marches. There were meetings held across

12:14the country where they pulled together all of the elders and talked about what was the action that was going to be taken to respond to the fact that our language was going to be lost, doing nothing about it. And that was around the late 1970s. So I’m not saying I’m not saying that, you know, I guess for my grandfather, seeing that it could be done in another country, seeing that that was something that would be also great.

12:54We had this issue here in New Zealand and, you know, how can we work together collectively as well. So that’s not the reason, but it was his, I guess his inspiration for that. also wanted to be a part of the movement alongside so many other people. So they did that and they had a meeting, one of the big meetings they had here, it wasn’t Al Marai and Waifutū, where they all agreed that they would do something and put together a language nest and there was an old man there, I shouldn’t call him an old man, a kaumātua.

13:38his name Tēnare Tūwhānga and he gave the name of the Kohanga Reo, which is essentially, Kohanga is a nest, the bird’s nest, and Reo is the language, so the nest, a language nest. And that’s really where the Kohanga Reo movement grew out of. They opened the first language nest up in 1982 here in Wanyamata. which is what my grandmother and another grandmother in Israel were involved with.

14:18They would travel around New Zealand and try and encourage communities to look at this, look at this, we need to do this. And we were lucky to have the first one open here in Wainemata. The second one quickly followed, which was at Wafetu Marae. And then they started opening up around New Zealand. Yes, I mean, it was just like a big movement. And then when you grew up, you used to speak your language? So, I was lucky to attend Kohanga. My first language is Māori.

15:01My grandmother would only speak to me in Māori. Petula’s about 16. It was probably quite a risk as well. As I do remember a story, she used to say that she would go to jail. And if she needed to go to jail, or the fact that she was teaching Māori to children, she would do that. That was a sacrifice that not just her, but I imagine so many other people were willing to make. and I think about the generation before, my mum’s generation and my aunt’s generation, is parents.

15:43They’re the lost, the parents who never got the language, the skip. And so I think there was a big sacrifice that they had to make for us. And so those of us who came, so many of us had the language that our Māori is our first language, but not necessarily being spoken. to in the homes. I was lucky that I did have the present language spoken to, spoken with, home. But it’s been a journey. It has been a muscle journey. Yeah, and it’s fascinating, for example, when they came with the stick movement and to keep and preserve your language and also so that inspired others because this went worldwide and then not only but in Hawaii and in Canada and the Mohawk language that was getting extinct but then same as your grandfather got the inspiration from Native Americans it replicated the same. I want you to tell me a little bit why the language is the way that we see our world. My native language is Spanish and sometimes for me it’s very difficult to write about like a literature or poetry in another language because I don’t feel that it’s the same, it’s more easy. Not only because I can get the words but it doesn’t come in the

17:13same way. I guess that is the same for Mari. I want you to tell me what is the biggest differences for example when we just use one single language, in this case English, and why this is homogenization of the languages can be a risk or just oversimplifying and losing the meaning of the world. Yeah. Gosh, that’s such a big question, eh, because, um, yeah, I… Often, when I think about how I might put some words together in Māori, I think about it from quite a descriptive way of looking at the world and trying to describe the scenario.

18:08And there’s a lot of metaphor and a lot of analogies that’s used when we speak the language. whereas I find that you use an English language, of course you can be metaphorical or analytical and all those things, but for me when they speak Māori, when I hear other people speaking metaphor, I think that’s what makes Māori language really beautiful, is the metaphorical and oratory that sits behind how we speak or how it’s spoken and it’s just so beautiful because we don’t… the language taps into, we can be talking about, we use, we draw on analogies about the forests and about the oceans and about the land and about all of the natural environments and that’s just, and even about our own sort of non -English, non -Maori people call them dengli gods, but we have our own gods and so I think that sets a platform for just a completely different way of seeing the world and speaking. And it’s quite hard to even translate. Sometimes in English, you might translate, say something. You say that in reverse in Māori, so it’s a… Yeah, it’s a famous thing. Sometimes I have to think like, what is there, or… Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the

19:41language is evolving. I mean, there are a lot of, and it’s great to me, I think languages have to evolve and become quite contemporary and it’s great that, and at the same time, yeah, there’s this other part of the whole language that’s just amazing. Yeah, yeah. And something that, do you think that the way that we speak our language is also the way that we relate with our environment?

20:08Like, for example, in the Western society, we don’t immerse or include nature in our language. Because physically we see it as a terrible thing. Yes. But how is it in mine? How is it different? Yeah. I would say it’s the same. It’s quite hard to separate out yourself as an individual from your whole world and or from your surroundings.

20:41And I think there’s also something about, how do I say this, without generalizing, I don’t want to generalize, but I think indigenous cultures, particularly Māori, they move as collectives. And so we also, our living and the way in which we see the world, we have our own family structures that don’t necessarily replicate. English family structures, for example. And that forces us to not think about ourselves as an individual, but to think about collectively. And I think that also then impacts how we speak and how we see the world and what we draw on in regards to how we choose to have conversations, because again, I’m not a… I don’t know nothing about brains, but I can’t help but think that impacts how we think and therefore how we speak. So yeah, there’s a massive, I think. That thought that you mentioned of thinking as a collective is very important because I think that our language and one of the problems that we have is that individuality.

22:03Yes, we are individual. We have an individuality, but we don’t think as a collective. And when we don’t think as a collective, we can’t see, for example, protecting a forest as a collective. We’re just some of the other party, not as a whole. If we don’t protect the forest, then we are not going to get the water from the rivers. We are not going to be protected all together, which it goes into my other question that is, How do you relate with nature? Now you said that these are collective, but how do you relate with nature? It’s like a, I know that it is different, but I want you to explain me. Like a, not like an individual or a pair party or we are over them. How do you as Mari relate with nature?

22:56I think it’s probably fair to say that thought for, again I don’t want to generalize about Māori because I don’t want to be speaking all Māori but my experience and my world as being a Māori Christian here is nature is, so if I was to go into the forest and I used to practice this always as a kid, I just thought it was second nature, it was just what I had to do. I’ll never go into a forest without first seeing prayer. and I’d never go into a forest without, I’d never break a branch off a tree. I’d never deliberately damage a tree without doing a prayer or if I needed something because of that branch needed, if I needed something to help me and that branch needed to help me, for example, with whatever, I’d never do it without asking. And that respect for nature, It comes under, for me, it comes under the notion of a principle that we have, which is called kaitsakitanga. And kaitsakitanga is this principle of being the caretaker, or being taken care of.

24:13People, but also your world. And when I talked earlier about God’s nature, recall nature, anything to do with trees and forests and that is… our God is Tāne Mahuta. And so when we walk into the forest and we behave in the way that is not acceptable or not responsible or not respectful of Tāne Mahuta, we are ultimately being disrespectful to our gods and that comes at a cost. And it’s the same way, I think, how we see that in today’s world, like we only have to look around. New Zealand at the moment and seeing all the different floods and the damage that is happening around our country. And I saw just recently actually on social media, I can’t remember his name, but it was a beautiful post. And it was talking about how our forests and our trees and our hills are sick. It’s because they’ve been so badly destroyed and destruction has happened that they’re actually sick in any time to heal. So when we think about those things, nature is, we ultimately come from nature. And when we introduce ourselves, one of the things I didn’t do when I introduced ourselves myself earlier, we actually start from introducing our mountain, our river, our land. And that’s our structure, for want of a better word, how

25:46we introduce ourselves, we draw a connection to our environment first, then we talk about our name last, because that’s actually the least important thing. The most important thing is a connection to the land and the idea when we children are born, and it’s actually like you heard this korero or this talk from a very prominent figure in our world who’s passed on, but Matua Moana Jackson, his name is Ami. So when he talked about when we’re born, the word for being born is whānau. Whānau, yeah. And whānau is to be born, but it also means our family. And then when mums or women are carrying us, in their womb, and it’s called hapu. So when someone is pregnant, they’re referred to as being hapu, which basically means you’re pregnant. And then when we die, we go back into, we go into the whenua, which is our land, but also our placenta is called whenua. So when we… When we’re born, a placenta is buried into the ground. When we’re born into a family, we’re born into a sub -tribe,

27:18a tribe, a sub -tribe. And then our bones are called koiwi. And that’s where the notion of iwi comes from. Iwi means tribe. We have a family, a sub -tribe, and then a tribe. And so that’s the importance of words. there as well. So Inua, Iwi, Hapu, and all of that ties us back to the environment and to our family. I think, you know, and I understand this, but also I don’t understand this, is that lands and borough, you know, where that stuff is seen as a resource, as a mineral, but we don’t use that. We don’t view it in that way. We view it as we have a responsibility to take care of all of our gods, which is essentially our whole environment. over all of our gods.

28:40That’s amazing. Also, I want you to tell me a little bit about your mother. An activist, how she was with you. Is there a role that women have in your society? Because it’s very different than we have in ours. At least in Colombia, or more or less mine. When I was born, the other women were single mothers, and the grandmothers played a big role in raising them. But I think that this is slightly different to how Mary Seeker went through. Yeah, I would say, again, I’m not a mixed group. But our women play a really, really important role. in Māori society. Of course, there’s, you know, without women, you can’t bear kids. But also, you know, and again, this came from my grandfather. He always used to say, if you want anything done, you need to get a woman for it. And it’s because, maybe it’s because there’s the nurturing factor around Aldrin and But also, you know, I know there’s a lot of drive there and compassion that comes from our women

30:13and from our mums and our grandparents particularly around making sure that laser focus on the children coming through is strong. And so I imagine when we heard that I know for me anyway, I remember when my children were born, I was just like, whatever’s going on around me can just, yeah, anything happens, watch out. Just this lioness fire. And I think that’s something I imagine a lot of people experience. But if we have a look at a lot of the historical land marches or marches. I think I’m thinking a lot of that.

31:04Like Dane from the Kupa, for example, who was one of the other profound wahine Māori or kia or woman in our culture who’s also passed on who led the march down to Wellington. If we have to think about like the language marches, there’s a photo there of another grandmother front and center. So they were the the ones who got made things happen and got things done. It was, you know, I mean, that a lot of the talking and what had happened, it was the woman who made it happen.

31:41When you go into a marae, for example, you can’t actually enter into that marae until a woman has called you on. And so if you don’t get caught on, you need to be laid out the door. And it was quite interesting because I think when we look at our practices, it is quite a male -dominated practice. But what sits behind everything and nothing can happen without the woman. And so, yeah. And the schools is that like actually they were the grandma and the son. The men teaching the kids. Yeah. Like a nurturing and then teaching them the language. Yeah. Of course they invite men for their base of everything was thanks to women. Yeah. Yeah. Which is very different in society is that we put push away or grandparents.

32:44Yeah. Or like elderly people with older knowledge. Yeah. I think even just elderly people, like in our society, our elderly, our kaumātua are treasures. And so we always want to make sure that they are taken care of. And, you know, we had a storm here just recently. And after I left where I work, I came past our, we call them kaumātua flats, which is just a flat. an area of homes where our elderly live and it’s what we call in to make sure that they’re okay. And it’s just little things like that because they’re so important and knowledge holders. They’re the ones who’ve done all the hard yards to be able to create the platform of which we get to live and experience from today. And they’re really fundamental people in our society. I think for us, when we think about, we’re very strong on multi -generational living. And so the cabin that’s outside, I know it’s being used at the moment as a bojo, but in my mind I’m going, when mum’s ready to come home, and if she wants her own space, or if we go out there, it’s not just about, it’s trying to build the future so that when we get to that point, we have the option to live multi -generationally.

34:15So we don’t like to, you know, even some of how we design our homes, now we’re thinking about how do we have homes so that our families can live together, still have our grandparents on site, you know, but still with their own independence as well, as opposed to sort of putting them in fact. Yeah. Or what’s it about? That way at home.

34:46Yeah, or in an adult. And, you know, granted be some families who have to do that. And this is not a, this is not a judgment on me. No. You know, at all. It’s the same way you said. Yeah. Yeah, that was very enticing, different to say. Something that I want to ask you is like what it means to work inside a system you are also challenging. Very challenging. Yeah. It’s hard.

35:14I mean, I’ve just spent 14 years working in central government. And that’s had its differences, depending on who the government of the day is and the different policies and all those things. It hasn’t good times, but it also has its really difficult moments. But at the same time, I guess that’s the work that you’ve got to do. If it’s too easy, then it shouldn’t ever be too easy. Well, it should be, but it’s not. But it has to come with challenge, because we’re trying to break a very well -oiled colonial system. And so I think… being mentally prepared is really important, but also knowing when to take losses and when to push banks losses is something I’ve had to learn a lot. And so I’ve always had this belief that sometimes that comes from my grandfather wrote a book or a paper called Reform on within. Sometimes you have to be in those systems, get to with the reform, make the changes. And I often think a lot about, I was reading actually, it was about reconciliation

36:46versus resurgence. And I’m just trying to remember the author. I know Linda Tuhiwai -Smith talks a lot about this, but also F. Quinn Tassels, I think it was, talks a lot about this on different researchers. But the importance of, well, some people have some thing on that, whether or not, are you working in the space of reconciliation or are you working in the space of resurgence?

37:18And I think for us as Māori, we’re working across all of that. You know, you have to be in these spaces where you’re reconciling with a partner or your partners, but also you have to be operating in spaces where you are practicing resurgence. And without practicing resurgence, you’re not getting these brown swells of experiences and things that are working that challenge the reconciliation practice. And so when I’m working within systems where you’re trying to, you have to decide whether or not your approach is going to be about reconciling with the other partner or pushing your resurgence.

38:05is the challenge. But one of the biggest challenges I’m seeing at the moment, and I don’t want this to be about the government, but it’s just the fact of how it feels, is I guess the threats of, you know, we’re going through a process right now where they wanted to, or they ran a treaty principles bill, which was a referendum around whether or not we should have this bill put in place. which seeks to redefine the treaty, the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, to favour the narrative that we ceded sovereignty. And that hurts, that’s hard. And there’s just constant Māori, I think, in the last term of this government have done nothing but write submissions upon submissions upon submissions because of the threats to the Treaty of Waitangi to our language and so those things still operate and you know when I sit here and I go I’m at a heart it’s all of that I also have to step back and go two generations ago our grandparents used to do the same thing if not worse so it’s a blip and we have all of these things where all of these ground root local examples of just continuing to be who we are

39:35and may the Māori King last year or when he was alive, that the best thing we can do right now is to be Māori. So that sort of encouragement to just continue to do what you do is what I think for me helps me. Focus over here for a little bit. While the sister was just having these little issues. Because I don’t want to put my energy here. Got around to put my energy over here. Where we’re teaching our children the language. We were practicing and supporting ground roots. Whakaana or haka tournaments and we’re watching our kids. That’s the resurgence that I want to focus on at the moment. How is the relationship with the People from Aotearoa, New Zealand, that is not Māori, are they receptive?

40:35Are they learning the language? Are they getting more immersed? How is their relationship with them? Yeah. So people who live in New Zealand, who are not Māori, but very supportive of Māori, we call them tangata tiriti, essentially allies. And three years ago, and I don’t know the stats, I don’t know, I think this was true, but it was a lot of talk around the uptake of non -Maori wanting to learn the Māori language, which is amazing. And when we think about, just recently, the Treaty Principles Bill, for example, we had a lot of non -Maori come in and support that.

41:23The voices were huge. there was a big massive march that didn’t get the numbers. It was powerful. When we think about, like, we’ve just come through our local government elections, and there was a referendum that was forced on local government. So that’s the council level by the central government about whether or not people wanted to have a Māori ward seat, which is… For those of you who don’t know what a Māori World seat is, it’s a dedicated, deliberately by design seat at the council table to represent the voices of Māori.

42:05People don’t have to be Māori to stand in that seat, but they have to hold the intention. I ran for that seat. I was uncontested in that seat. I’m in that seat now. But that seat was up for a referendum. But our community and the whole of Wellington voted to keep it. And so that was really empowering and really hopeful that our community and those across the country, it’s growing more and more. The support for Māori is growing really, really. It’s growing really well, yeah. It’s very encouraging. Yeah, yeah, yeah, hope. Yeah and I think too, I think what’s happened is with the way this government has been, it’s actually some people are saying enough is enough, this is not okay. And it’s sad to go backwards instead of forwards and then repeating the same mistakes. Trying to go to a past thing.

43:14And just to finalise. In challenging times, what keeps you going? What angers you? What inspires you? I think the things that inspire me are, I was talking before about practices on resurgence. It’s, I guess it’s a number of things and at different levels. I love going to our community events. I love seeing our children running around, speaking our language. and their parents, their grandparents. I love hearing that. I love seeing our groups out there performing on the stage in Kapahaka. I love the fact that we’ve got some very intelligent Māori people stepping into wanting to be in local councils. local elections, driving, you know, we’ve got an election coming up. I love seeing Māori people stepping forward, putting their names forward for positions in our different, sorry, not our Labour Party, but in different parties across our central government. I think just seeing those little individual acts, because I know behind the individual has been a series of conversations. has been a community support.

44:49So with that one person comes hundreds if not thousands of people and that inspires me because we’re seeing more and more of that which is probably something that Māori would have not necessarily always stepped into in the past. I just think that When I see those little, well, not little, but when I see those types of things occurring, it just gives me hope that we still talk about the blip. These things are just blips. We’re going to carry on anyway. It’s been 185 years.

45:33We’ve got through these things before. It’s just part of the journey. But we do want to get to a point, 2040. which is, you know, if you talk about 2040 in New Zealand with Māori, you all know what 2040 stands for, which is Aotearoa Ho. It’s our aim. It’s our vision, which is a different New Zealand than what we’re seeing today. Thank you very much. Yeah, well, it’s been a pleasure having you here in Science the Hungry Glass. Do you want to send a message to the people around the world? Oh, gosh. Hey. Fight for what you need to fight for. Stand up for what you need to stand up for, but take care of yourself and that person. educational explainer content, and personalized coaching for researchers and communicators who want more impact. Visit us at Science Behind the Grass. to learn more.

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