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Transcript

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0:01Who are the characters behind science? This is Science Behind the Glass, illuminating the human side. In this podcast, we unveil the human side of laboratories and science. Scientists share personal experiences and we’ll discuss their meanings from different perspectives and fields of research. Disclaimer, this is a translated version using AI voice for the guest. Welcome to Science Behind the Glass, Illuminating the Human Side, the podcast where we explore the human stories that bring science to life. Santiago is an ethnobotanist, educator, photographer, and National Geographic explorer whose work bridges science, culture, and community. He tackles pressing socio -environmental challenges, from climate change and biodiversity loss to deforestation and gender inequality. His projects span from preserving indigenous ethnobotanical knowledge in Panama to using drones to protect endangered monkeys in Peru and Costa Rica. He leads initiatives that turn sargassum, the seaweed, into economic opportunities in different countries. Today, we explore how science and storytelling intertwine to protect nature and empower communities. Santiago, thank you for being here. It’s a pleasure having you with us. Thank you, Linda. I’m very happy to join you today on this episode. Santiago, you are Colombian and also Lebanese. Your multicultural

1:33roots have guided much of what you have developed. This passion has guided you in your life. Can you share a bit of that story with us and how this translates into what you have become and why you pursue science and how you have connected with other cultures? Yes, good question. We Latin Americans, the vast majority of us, have a certain ethnic and cultural background. I think most of us, if we took on the task of investigating where I come from, my parents, my grandparents, my great -grandparents, we’d realize that we’re a mixture of many cultures. cultures. And that’s what makes our culture so rich and special. What also happens is that I believe we also develop a new identity. We Latin Americans have this new identity where we know we’re a people that are largely mixed from different ethnicities.

2:19But let’s say in my case, perhaps that mixture is much more recent because my grandparents emigrated from Lebanon to Colombia around the 1950s. As a curious fact, there are many, many Lebanese people in Colombia. Colombia has the second largest Lebanese diaspora on the planet after Brazil, and we have almost more Lebanese in Colombia than Lebanon itself. I didn’t know that. Did this happen after World War II? Exactly. But it started a little earlier. When Lebanese people arrived in Colombia, they came with passports from the Ottoman Empire. They were called Turks, which is why in Colombia we often call Lebanese, Syrians, and Palestinians Turks, as if everything were the same. My grandfather didn’t like being called Turkish at all, being Lebanese. But yes, that’s why there are some very famous representatives like Shakira. I think multiculturalism, especially when we recognize it as part of us, is the best thing ever. Because it allows you, at first, it can be a bit disorienting. Because maybe you feel like you don’t necessarily identify with any of these groups you belong to, you know?

3:20So you say, maybe I don’t. I mean, I feel very Colombian. But maybe there are things about me that aren’t very Colombian. Maybe when I’m with my family, I feel… But there are also things I’m not 100 % in agreement with. So there you create this middle ground that at first I thought was like floating there, not belonging to any side. And then I realized that not only did I belong to both, but it gives me a really beautiful perspective on things, you know? I’ve always felt that it’s much easier to work, speak, and represent things that reflect us. So we as Colombians, there’s something special inside us that clicks when we’re talking about Latin America or some issue that happens there at any level, right?

3:56Scientific, cultural, social. Same as biologists. We clearly feel much more comfortable when we’re talking about these topics. And I feel that this multiculturalism also allows me to explore the planet a bit more. In a way, it has given me more belonging to the planet and to understand the different perspectives, what unites us and what separates us, you know, as human beings. Latin Americans and people from the Middle East have many things in common, right? They’re both very lively peoples and go -getters, as we say in Colombia, also with similar problems. And I think if we reflect on these things, I believe if we Latin Americans did the work of also recognizing a bit those European ancestors we have, those indigenous ancestors we have, African ancestors we might also have, it helps a bit in that perspective we have about society and how, well, look, we’re more alike than we think. The truth is we have much more in common and we have good things in common, but we also share struggles and efforts and how good it would be to support groups in that, you know? But I do feel, if you ask me between these two projects, this one is to work with local communities in Brazil, and this one is to work with local communities in Thailand.

5:01The Thailand one seems super incredible and innovative, but I’d always feel a bit more relevant and that I can contribute a bit more closer to home. You know, like we understand a bit more that background, the historical and social conditions. And it also feels a bit closer to home, you know, that you’re supporting that collective idea of what one knows is Latin America. And I feel that having that in mind when you work gives a very special aspect to your work. Perhaps the fact that my grandparents were immigrants has led me to have a facility and particular taste for working with.

5:30immigrants, with refugees. When we ask ourselves who we are and recognize and accept that identity of ours, it’s always easier to work with those same identity groups. And I feel it’s a beautiful exercise as scientists, quite interesting to do. Yes, it is true. And especially, I think, when you are open to other cultures and you have traveled a lot. especially coming from a multicultural family. That also helps you to be open to listening to other voices, not to have so many prejudices.

5:59I think you have values, obviously, and you take from different cultures. The things that seem enriching to you, that help you to grow and you leave aside other things that you don’t agree with. But at the same time, it is like that broad perspective of allowing yourself to listen, of not coming with so many mental limitations. So I think that story you have and that family…

6:26You have has helped you tremendously to shape the way that you are. You have been part of many organizations and research projects in many countries. How do you get different groups to focus on a common goal? How do you manage to get them to agree when there are such different opinions and such different cultures? Yes, I think it’s super difficult. You have to do it, but it’s not easy. Maybe what would be easier, but not necessarily easy, is aligning behind the same objective. I’ve been very fortunate to be able to work in environments where we all believe in this. Climate change is a phenomenon we have to work on, and we have to develop mitigation and resilience strategies because things are getting worse. We’re losing biodiversity, ecosystem services. I think I’ve been very fortunate that I’ve always been in environments where these problems are recognized. What becomes much more complicated is the way. When you have, as you said, different cultures from many disciplines, different educational and social levels, working on the same project. How you reach that goal is super different. And I think as scientists, maybe at the beginning of our careers or in the middle stage of our careers, it’s super key to realize that there isn’t usually effective communication between different actors. I work with many scientists who are the cream of the crop, who say, I mean, they’re famous people. They’re super established in their field. They’re super recognized in their subject at a national level or in their respective countries. The moment you have to get these people to work and coordinate with perhaps local leaders who have a super different way of working, recognitions also mean very different things. That’s when it gets very complicated because it becomes an

7:56issue of egos, an issue of effectiveness, of communication, and even of language. At least in my field, where we work a lot with local impact, well, almost always the base should be, well, we all have to speak the local language or have a standard language, right? Because maybe we don’t have the time or facility to learn a language, like what would be ideal would be to learn an indigenous language if we’re going to work with a particular indigenous group. But maybe we have Spanish as a middle ground to communicate. But imagine you bring in some super experts who can contribute a lot, but they don’t speak Spanish and can’t learn it, and it’s not part of their plan. One of the things I’ve learned that’s most important is constant, assertive communication.

8:32And I feel that as scientists, it’s not necessarily something we should be taught in biology or physics or chemistry degrees. It’s communication in collaboration, because it’s not just sharing methodologies, statistical analysis tests. It’s also talking about how we’re going to solve problems or how we’re going to discuss when we don’t agree on an approach, how we’re going to talk about timelines and deliverables and how we’re going to give each other feedback. I feel that’s something that maybe you see more in a company. maybe in other fields that aren’t what would be like a human resources department. Yeah, that’s true.

9:02I actually agree. And I noticed that scientists are not really good communicating. I’m noticing signs that different disciplinary fields don’t communicate, not even within the same university. So it seemed ridiculous to me because when I did my PhD, I was working in an interdisciplinary project. because I like learning and mixing other disciplines and incorporating them. But I realized that the person that was helping me, the engineer that ended up helping me, was an external person to the university, because within the same university, the engineers weren’t connected with the biologists.

9:45And it was the same for us. We didn’t know what they were doing or up to. So I ended up working with someone completely external. and to the university. And we’re very bad at communicating even among ourselves. But this is the essence of this field. For example, you have worked with indigenous communities and scientists, people who often come from different worlds and at times are not easy to bring together. For me, language is one of the biggest barriers. I don’t know if I’m giving too much credit to artificial intelligence, but I do think it can help bridge some of those gaps. Still, learning another language isn’t always easy. When we speak our own language, we express ourselves differently. We can show frustration, disagreement, or emotion in ways that don’t always translate across languages.

10:38That’s a real challenge we need to overcome. So how do you do it? How do you manage to connect with indigenous communities and navigate those complexities to achieve your goals? I think one of the most important things I’ve learned is the value of sitting down to talk, to listen, and to ask questions, though not in that order. First, you ask, then you listen, and only after that, you speak. I feel that we often don’t create enough spaces to truly listen, to ask what’s going well, what’s not going well. Even when tension starts to build within a team, we rarely have the tools or the time to talk things through or find reconciliation. Maybe it’s partly because of this new reality of Zoom and virtual meetings, where everything is compressed into one productive hour, leaving no room to check in on how people are feeling or what’s actually working. Sadly, those human moments have taken a backseat. But I’ve learned that being present for people really matters. It’s exhausting work sometimes because ideally, there shouldn’t be just one person acting as a bridge between everyone. It should be more like a network, a space where people can talk openly, share feedback, and support each other directly without intermediaries. That’s something I’m still working on, building that kind of trust and connection. It’s not easy, but it’s been one of the most meaningful lessons, realizing that there are many different ways to collaborate.

11:52And when you work with indigenous communities, they bring a kind of knowledge that’s different from what we are used to in Western science. It is wonderful, but it is different. So how do you bring those two worlds together? How do indigenous and Western knowledge systems find common ground and work towards the same goal? Do you have an example you could share with us? I’d say there’s actually a third group between the two you mentioned, between indigenous and Western knowledge systems. For me, it’s never been too difficult to bring indigenous and Western perspectives together, at least in the projects I’ve been part of or helped lead. That’s because when you start from the understanding that traditional ancestral knowledge has been built and refined over centuries, it becomes clear how much Western science can learn from it, and vice versa. There are so many things we don’t yet know through our scientific method, simply because we haven’t had the chance to live and coexist in these territories the way indigenous communities have for generations.

12:50In their own way, they’ve been conducting a continuous process of research and discovery for hundreds of years. It may not follow the same structure as Western science, but it’s equally valid, and, in many cases, even more rooted in human experience. This knowledge carries the stories, struggles, and wisdom of entire generations. I see it as something with deep, intrinsic value to humanity, which is why preserving and integrating traditional indigenous knowledge is so important. In ethnobotany, for example, indigenous communities have discovered countless plant uses through centuries of observation and experimentation, uses that western botany hasn’t yet identified. That’s incredible. And from the Western side, we can also offer tools and resources that help strengthen and support their knowledge, especially in environmental and cultural conservation. But the group that’s often more challenging to reconcile is local, non -Indigenous knowledge, like that of rural or fishing communities. These groups have lived in the same regions for many years, but they don’t always share that same deep ancestral continuity as Indigenous peoples. Their worldview often blends both Indigenous and Western influences, and finding balance within those nuances can be a lot more complex. I would say one of the main challenges, and you’re absolutely right, is that, for example, where I live in a regional city, many of the environmental issues involve local farmers, especially those working with sugar cane. Their mindset is centered on production.

14:11Here, there’s a little nod to integration of ancestral Aboriginal knowledge about how crops should be cultivated and managed. There is talk of transitioning to other crops because sugarcane has caused both environmental and economic losses. These farming communities are often resistant to change, and part of the issue is that communication with the government is lacking. It is not just about providing funding. It’s about guidance, mediation, and long -term support to ensure a smooth transition towards more sustainable and diverse crops. But I understand where that resistance comes from. It is hard to change something that has been part of your life, your family, your grandfather’s livelihood for generations. That kind of adaptation feels abrupt. As you mentioned, it also stems from a European agricultural tradition that doesn’t always align with local realities.

15:10There’s a real disconnection, not only from ancestral knowledge, but also from local needs and long -term thinking. Many of these farmers depend on each harbour to repay large loans. Their immediate survival depends on maintaining production, so the idea of change feels risky. It’s exactly that gap between the current reality and ancestral wisdom that we are observing here, and it’s one of the hardest to breach. Yes, I feel it’s a great example. You’re absolutely right. Here in Canada, in this province located in the Northwest Territories, there’s an indigenous protected area called Taydenene. It’s managed by a group of First Nations called the Dene. And it’s a super beautiful project that I think the more we learn about that project, the more positive ideas we can have for conservation and how to involve indigenous communities fairly in conservation.

16:02And they have a conservation project. The project is a tundra ecosystem and there are super important carbon. reserves. They are called peatlands. It’s like these ecosystems have a lot of moss, and due to low temperatures, there’s a lot of organic matter that’s been kept underground for many years, like peat. Yes, it’s similar to peat. The paramount isn’t exactly the same, but it is somewhat comparable in the sense that both are rich in accumulating organic matter, like we find in the high Andean forests, where the decomposition of organic material builds up over time. We don’t have tundra ecosystem. And what they did was remarkable. They realized that with global warming, they were facing a very serious problem because Arctic ecosystems are among the most vulnerable to temperature change. And that’s not just a biodiversity issue. It’s a climate one, too. These ecosystems are massive carbon sinks storing huge amounts of carbon. If they’re lost, the emissions released would be catastrophic.

17:03So they started raising funds through different means and managed to invest that money in a bank. From those investments, they now generate around $1 million annually. dedicated entirely to managing the protected area. That money creates jobs for Indigenous people, builds local capacities, supports community employment and even boosts tourism. It allows them to pay park rangers and ecosystem managers, people who can actually make a living from conservation. It’s a beautiful model, because we rarely talk about the financial sustainability of conservation projects. This Indigenous initiative succeeded by combining their ancestral knowledge of how to manage the land with a Western financial structure that made the investment possible.

17:42It’s a unique and inspiring case. The amount they had to raise was significant, about 15 million Canadian dollars, which now sits in the bank, generating that annual return. But what you mentioned is very important because we had a guest who is the director of a nonprofit organization in Africa, in Nigeria, the SW Niger Delta Forest Project. Rachel Ikeme works with local communities. And she said that one of the biggest problems that they are facing is, well, not only her, but most of the nonprofit organization, is the collection and maintenance of those resources and the revenue. It seems incredible that the Dene have done. Because it allows them to have a fixed return and not just depending on grants or the people or the money that they can raise, fundraise. And this makes a gigantic difference.

18:37I think that’s something that hasn’t been achieved to be stable in many nonprofits organizations. Yes, I think it would be super nice if there were like a manual. And I had a colleague, I really appreciate, Kim Neal. who’s indigenous here in Canada. And she had this idea for a long time of hopefully making a manual with all the financial tools you can have access to, focused on indigenous people, but it could be used by anyone working in conservation. All the financial tools you have to reach the financial sustainability of your conservation project and how to combine several, because the truth is there are so many tools. Yeah, that’s right. Collaboration is key.

19:11I have observed that while some organizations cooperate, many with similar goals still operate in isolation. You have hit on a crucial point. It would be very incredibly beneficial if non -profit conservation organizations could pull their efforts. At the very least, they should collaborate to ensure financial sustainability. We have a guest who was the director of CAFNIC, which is another organization from here in northern Queensland. And she said they were also very careful with the money they received because they couldn’t receive money from corporations or things like that. I want you to tell us more about how do you become a National Geographic explorer, specifically what the grant or the project imply. And then let’s divide into the project itself. Could you explain exactly what is this National Geographic grant entails, focusing on your work with Sargassum Seaweed? How has the Sargassum influx become such a challenge and how? Have you managed to turn that challenge into a tangible opportunity? The application process I went through actually no longer exists.

20:27The organization’s way of bringing in new explorers has shifted significantly in recent years. But that makes sense. The needs of the National Geographic Society, which is a non -profit, are constantly changing. The organization is super interesting because it has such a weighty name, right? they have an essential strategy and a brilliant team dedicated to constantly protecting and raising the brand name of what they do i think in today’s world where misinformation is so widespread and accessible the fact that national geographic still holds the public’s trust is absolutely invaluable When I applied, you could still enter by submitting pretty much any project you wanted.

21:05Today, they operate with specific calls. National Geographic will say, for example, we are looking for projects on these three topics. In that sense, though, the course system remains the same. You submit a project, it goes through different evaluation stages, and if they like it, if they consider it aligns with NatGeo’s values, and you’ve demonstrated you can reasonably execute it, they give you the funding. The funding is great, but the true value is the doors it opens and the community it gives you access to. It’s truly one of the most inspiring communities I know. It’s filled with people who are deeply committed to human rights, biodiversity protection, advancing science and democratizing technology. The first project I successfully entered with was an ethnobotany conservation project working with the Embera communities. That was my first NatGeo -funded project. Eventually, after two or three more projects, we started developing the Sargassum work. That project started with National Geographic funding, and today it’s actually funded by the governments of Canada and Brazil. Sargassum is a truly fascinating topic because I think it’s one of the clearest examples we have of the impacts of climate change and possibly of ecosystem loss and the excessive use of agrochemicals. Right now, we, the scientific community, have about five possible explanations for why there is suddenly so much sargassum. Before, say, 20 years ago, sargassum was simply not a problem. This has only become an absolute crisis in the last 13 years. And this sargassum naturally occurs on coast? Sargassum has a truly beautiful history.

22:34For me, one of the reasons I love botany so much is that plants are organisms that have such a strong interaction with humans. Their history is super intrinsically linked with ours. There are many similar stories around plants and algae. It turns out that one of the first written reports we have of sargassum is from Christopher Columbus. The first time he sailed to the Americas, he passed through an ecosystem called the Sargasso Sea, roughly in the North Atlantic. It’s a vast patch. We’re talking several times the size of the state of Texas in the United States, right there in the middle of the ocean. He saw that golden patch and noted it in his journals. It may be much older, though. There was that ancient North African civilization, the Carthaginians, and they were also great navigators. They sailed to the Azores, those Portuguese islands thousands of years ago, roughly parallel to the Roman Empire era. It seems that even then, there were already reports or legends of a phenomenon in the sea that appears to be the Sargasso Sea. So, Sargassum is a species native to the Atlantic. It’s been around for millennia. it always arrived in moderate quantities on the coasts of tropical atlantic countries here in colombia on the san andres and providencia islands little pieces of sargassum always washed up it was normal The Sargasso Sea is unique because it’s the only sea contained by currents, not by land barriers. One of the leading hypotheses suggests that around 2011 or 2013, very strong winds essentially pulled the Sargassum out of the Sargasso Sea. They shifted it into other currents, which then carried it

24:05to the tropics to warmer waters. In those warm waters, it found everything it needed. This formed what is now called the New Great Sargassum Belt, which stretches between West Africa and Brazil. So now we still have the ancient Sargassum. and we have this new belt that was generated less than 15 years ago. In addition to this climate phenomenon from strong winds, the fact that the water is warmer helps the photosynthesis process of these organisms up to a certain point. Warmer water also changes the ocean currents, disrupting the normal flow that sargassum would have. Beyond that, the Atlantic Ocean appears to have many more nutrients than it did before. They suggest this is mainly due to two things, an increase in desertification of the Sahara, meaning more Saharan dust reaches the Atlantic, and an increase in nutrient runoff from large rivers like the Amazon, the Mississippi, and the Congo. All these rivers are surrounded by large agricultural plantations with excessive use of agrochemicals, and all that nitrogen is perfect for sargassum. That’s why we have the crisis we are facing today. The sargassum that’s been arriving in the last 15 years is also periodic. Not every year is the same. This year has been one of massive arrivals.

25:09Very, very strong. But the two previous years, it wasn’t as abundant. We have several theories, but it certainly seems that climate change and the increase of nutrients in the ocean aren’t helping. When small quantities arrived, it was positive for coasts, bringing good nutrients for mangroves. But now we’re talking about years where hundreds of thousands of tons arrive. So much arrives that it covers the whole beach and starts to stagnate and rot in the water. This generates anoxic conditions and can cause widespread mortality of coastal biodiversity. When decomposing, it releases hydrogen sulfide gas, which is an irritant respiratory inocular. We actually have a health project right now evaluating the impacts of gas exposure on human health. Ironically, sargassum is also super good. It’s a brilliant bioremediator because it’s very good at absorbing heavy metals. The problem is, if the sargassum cleanses the sea by absorbing arsenic and then rots on your beach, all that arsenic is released into those coastal ecosystems. And if you collect it and put it in a landfill on land, the arsenic starts contaminating the soil. This is a serious possibility. There aren’t definite studies yet, which is why follow -up is so important. How are communities sustainably utilizing or managing these large deposits of sarcasm? Let’s talk about the practical side of this, which is being discussed constantly right now. Sargassum, like many other algae, has numerous potential uses. It contains a component called alginate, which is extremely valuable in the pharmaceutical and cosmetic industries.

26:37This component has significant industrial value, but you can also use sargassum to create construction materials, fertilizer and compost, soaps, bioplastics, biogas, or even culinary dishes. You can also extract other components called fucoidins and alginates that have other super interesting applications. However, one of the most important barriers we need to clarify before enabling wider use is the issue of arsenic. Sargassum is already being commercialized internationally quite a bit. There’s a Finnish company, for example, that imports sargassum all the way from the Dominican Republic to Finland. In Finland, they perform the alginate extraction process and have a whole line of cosmetic cream products based on it. I imagine it must be going very well for them because the process of shipping sargassum that far can’t be cheap.

27:25I mention this particular example because their process requires arsenic removal. Since arsenic is a heavy metal, we have to be very mindful. of the quantities we’re dealing with. If we’re going to use it as a fertilizer, it’s likely not a good idea to use it without treating it first. The same applies to using it as food. What about tomatoes obtained from… I initially thought using it for construction materials would be relatively safe. However, it turns out that over the years, as those bricks start to deteriorate, the microscopic dust may also contain arsenic, which people could then inhale. At the industrial level, many companies are working on this, and I think many are doing quite well and continue to be interested in exploring… this business once they establish the heavy metal removal process.

28:05At the community level, this has been a major bottleneck, but the product doesn’t necessarily have to be processed locally. We’re talking about small communities, maybe only 300 people who are receiving hundreds of tons of sargassum. Naturally, a community without reliable internet isn’t thinking about setting up a multi -million dollar processing factory. But one thing that might be more interesting, which we want to evaluate. is how attractive it would be for the community to simply collect the sargassum and sell it.

28:33That way, the community earns money from the sale and benefits from cleaning the beach to avoid those negative impacts. Then, somewhere else that does have the necessary infrastructure can process it into different products. Many experts bet that the best solution for sargassum is compost or fertilizer because you can process a huge volume of biomass that way. but other people still pursue alginate objectives as it’s a more refined and expensive product. There are also people selling carbon credits by collecting and transforming the sargassum because it prevents carbon dioxide and methane emissions from decomposition.

29:09And how has the community reacted? How have you managed to build that trust with the community and work hand -in -hand with them in sargassum management? It depends heavily on the geographic location. Brazil is super interesting in terms of the oceanographic dynamics of sargassum. The sargassum arrives very intermittently there. It almost always passes about 20 or 30 kilometers from the coast of northeastern and northern Brazil, but it doesn’t necessarily reach the shoreline.

29:37But when it does arrive, it arrives with everything. Ridiculous quantities. But since it arrives so irregularly, there isn’t necessarily an economic interest in it, you know? Even though a lot arrives, if it only happens once a year and not every day or every week, it doesn’t provide the basis for any sustainable business. However, in Mexico, because so much arrives and it’s been arriving with such frequency, there are many established economic interests, and that complicates everything.

30:03So, it’s a complicated topic because it has become a nexus of so many different interests, you know? I think it’s always important to support solutions with concrete economic and scientific data. We in particular are not focused on telling anyone how they have to do this. What we are doing is research to understand what the actual needs are and what kind of management each community should give to the sargassum. We’re working on this with researchers from the University of British Columbia who are part of our team. They’re economists. For example, for this particular community in Mexico, we’re asking, of all these alternatives for sargassum, which would make the best economic sense, which would generate the most jobs, which would generate the greatest return for these people, and critically, which would generate the greatest environmental benefit, because not all sargassum uses have the same carbon footprint. So, we’re analyzing the economic return to the community, the social return in terms of job creation, and the environmental impact. We’re doing this scientific economic analysis of all those different products to provide them with a guide. Something that says, hey look, our data and research indicate that of all these things I mentioned, soap, compost, maybe creating a collection center and taking it elsewhere, this option offers the best overall benefit.

31:13Yes, like being more specific about what the community needs are and how the community can utilize Syrogasian to meet those needs. Exactly. What’s the initial investment? What would be the return? I feel the decision is communal. especially if we’re talking about a town that has a mayor. If we’re talking about a few thousand people, the decision, I don’t know if it is made at the community level, maybe something driven by the mayor, or if different groups are going to form with different interests. I think that in itself would be a whole other additional project, you know, like trying to coordinate what would be the best decisions. And how have you approached indigenous communities? How have you managed to establish those bridges of trust, specifically with them? Tell us, for example, I was reading about you and I saw that that you were carrying out photography and drawing workshops, trying to empower those communities with other tools that they can also use and establish. How did you manage to establish those bridges? How exactly did you get to that level of collaboration? yes i think it’s also a combination of effort and good luck because i’ve worked very well with the indigenous communities i’ve had the great fortune to know and visit we’ve always understood each other very well and i think i arrive with the mentality i just mentioned i’ve also been fortunate to have projects that give me the flexibility to take the necessary time to listen you don’t always have projects where they give you that space sometimes the pressure is I need these results, and go for it. But when I’ve worked with indigenous communities, fortunately, I’ve always had that space to really understand a

32:44bit of what’s needed, how we can contribute, and if we can’t contribute exactly what’s needed, how we can help make those connections, or contribute a small piece to achieve those more important goals. Sometimes that means contributing in a way that is parallel to our main research, you know? I feel it’s always super important to start by asking what is needed. And from what’s needed, think about how, based on one’s own skills, you can contribute. I feel that sometimes we don’t always have the best approach when we have a tool or a set of experiences and skills and we try to apply it no matter what in a specific place. Because sometimes that’s simply not what’s most needed. You shouldn’t force the tool. You must understand what’s needed first. If the tools I have work, great. If not, then you can see what other members or what other collaborators you can bring in to meet that need and you contribute from your own area of knowledge. Yes, that’s super important. And you recently joined UNESCO Green Citizens as a Pathfinder. What is this network about and what does it mean to you to be part of this network? The initiative is super beautiful. The idea is to be able to give a platform to local projects, like the project our indigenous collaborators are doing in Panama, or what the youth are now doing with photography. Just to quickly summarize that photography part, we basically spoke with the chief and asked if he might be interested in a series of storytelling workshops for the young people to tell a bit about the reality being seen in the community. He really liked the idea. But returning to UNESCO, the core idea is to give a platform to visualize local level projects that are making positive

34:15changes for the planet. And on the platform, they have the opportunity not only to share their successes, but also their needs. I need these human resources, or I’d love to work with a hydrologist, or we require these financial or scientific resources. The idea is also for it to serve as a platform to connect different projects and different people. Hopefully, it becomes a means for others who want to support these projects to know exactly how to communicate or what the project actually needs. Sometimes you hear from people who say, I’d like to support Indigenous communities in the Amazon, but I don’t know how, I don’t know where to start, I don’t know what they need.

34:51I think that’s what’s so interesting about this platform. It helps facilitate these types of conversations. And I’m very happy to be able to participate in that because with all these projects and my travels, I know many local level initiatives that are doing incredibly beautiful things. For example, we were in Peru working with an NGO called Yunkawasi that collaborates with different local conservation groups in the state of Amazonas. Many of their main projects focus on the conservation of the yellow -tailed woolly monkey, which is endemic to Peru and critically endangered. These communities have developed some super impressive conservation and ecotourism projects around protecting the monkey and its ecosystem. I feel UNESCO provides an important and interesting platform. That’s right. It’s a wonderful initiative, a network designed to unite and connect all these beautiful local projects you have been. a part of. It would be great if you could share the link. We will make sure to share it with our audience so people who are interested can participate, explore different projects, or find ways to apply their own skills to contribute. It sounds like a fantastic resource for action. There’s one in Colombia that surely sounds familiar to you. It’s called Proyecto Titi. And right there, it says exactly what the organization in charge is looking for. People who want to get involved with this endangered species can contribute in different ways. Santiago?

36:13Thank you for sharing with us all this knowledge, all the adventures you have had. Thank you so much for being here. What message do you want to send to all our listeners? Currently, the news and social media tend to focus a lot on giving us bad news on the front page. In English, there’s this expression, no news is good news. Like good news isn’t news. And sometimes the outlook can seem a bit bleak. But when we focus on these local projects or small successes, right?

36:40When we see how at the local level people can group together for immediate change, it brings quite a bit of hope, you know? So… I think sometimes, even though we don’t hear so much about those projects, the UNESCO initiative, for example, even though they don’t make the news, even though they don’t reach our Instagram or TikTok, there are small projects that are making a difference. And there are hundreds, thousands of those projects worldwide that are trying to work for the planet, for nature, for human rights. And we’re going to keep at it.

37:06Thank you, Santi, for that powerful message. Perfect for this moment of uncertainty. Thank you for sharing this space with us. It truly has been a pleasure to have you here. The pleasure is mine, and especially to be able to reconnect and see each other again. This episode was inspired by the power of collective collaboration, how knowledge, when woven across cultures, generations, and disciplines, creates solutions stronger than any other perspective alone. Santiago’s Journeys show how science and storytelling can connect worlds and empower communities. Science Behind the Glass is an independent podcast created and hosted by Linda Hernández Durán and Daniel Snerguera, with the invaluable support of our dedicated technical director, Rafael Giordano, and original music by our colleague and friend, Bernardo Águila.

38:02Stay connected with us on Instagram, X, Facebook, LinkedIn, and TikTok. And visit our website for more stories, updates, and resources. Don’t forget to subscribe and share this podcast with your friends and communities to amplify these essential narratives. And if this episode inspired you, consider supporting us with a contribution via PayPal. Just click the Support Us button on our website. Your support helps this project grow and ensures that together we keep illuminating the human side of science. Until next time.