---

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors, especially in names. Click any timestamp to jump to that moment in the audio.

0:01Who are the characters behind science? This is Science Behind the Glass, illuminating the human side. In this podcast, we unveil the human side of laboratories and science. Scientists share personal experiences and we’ll discuss their meanings from different perspectives and fields of research. Disclaimer, this is a translated version using AI voice for the guest. Welcome to Science Behind the Glass, illuminating the human side. the podcast that explores the people behind research in the macro and micro universe of science. Today, we travel to the invisible world beneath our feet with Dr. César Marín, professor of ecology and evolution at Santo Tomás University in Chile. His passion is understanding how fungi wave the networks that sustain life on Earth, from forests to deserts. Cesar reveals the surprising life that occurs in the soil and how these tiny organisms sustain entire ecosystems.

1:06Joining him, Dr. Bernardo Aguilar Salgado, researcher at the UNAM Mexico, invites us to discover how relationships between plants, soils, and microorganisms can inspire new ways of caring for the planet. Joining him, Dr. Bernardo Aguila Salgado, researcher at Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, invites us to discover how relationships between plants, soils, and microorganisms can inspire new ways of caring for the planet. Additionally, he’s a personal friend of this podcast as he produced the music we used for it. Today, we’ll meet these two experts, their stories, and learn about fungi and their amazing connections. Additionally, he’s a personal friend of this podcast as he produced the music we use for the podcast. Today, we will meet these two experts, their stories, and learn about Fungi and their amazing connection.

2:02Welcome, thank you so much for being here, thank you Bernardo, thank you César for accepting the invitation and we hope you enjoy this interview. To start, we’ll begin with something basic. Since you both work on topics related to microorganisms, how would you explain what the microbial world is? And on a personal note, what draws you to study microorganisms? Well, if I can start, because just these days I’m writing a book chapter that tries to answer that question of what the microbial world is, and in which I describe that basically the world is such as microbial. Microorganisms make up about 20 % of the biomass of all organisms, but also evolutionarily, phylogenetically, microorganisms are the majority. It turns out that since the 21st century, we’ve come to understand that microorganisms are also very prevalent in all organisms, forming a holobiont. So, what I describe in this chapter is this microbial blindness we’ve had as humanity and as biologists, as scientists, because many of our concepts and our way of thinking about life has been based on microorganisms on what we can see. However, microorganisms are the majority.

3:05They’re responsible for nutrient cycles, both in the ocean and in the soil, and that’s what led me to study them, their complexity, their enormous numbers. In the soils I study, in one gram of soil, there can easily be a billion bacteria and thousands upon thousands of species. So that complexity has always fascinated me. That’s what drew me to microorganisms. And that was something that you developed since you were a kid? How did you get interested as a biologist among so many topics? Why did you decide to choose microorganisms?

3:38No, it was later. In fact, older. It was when I began my doctoral studies. It was by accident, actually. I was trying to understand what the relationship is between biodiversity and ecosystem services or functions. It’s been a topic that has always interested me. I arrived in Valdivia, Chile in February 2014. I had no idea they were on vacation. There was only one professor who told me about a project that focused on understanding how biodiversity, certain methods of quantifying biodiversity, and the resulting explanations of ecosystem services and functions. And I think microorganisms are perfect for studying that question. And you, Bernardo? Well, similar. I mean, it’s very similar. For me, microorganisms represent the past to the future. In the sense that they’re the ancestors. It’s how life originates.

4:24And we know, as Caesar said, that we are a holobiont. We really don’t exist as individuals. We’re a collection of many individuals, including microorganisms that have gigantic impacts on the Earth. i’d even dare to say that even without humans the future lies with microorganisms many experiments are currently underway for example attempting to colonize mars with cyanobacteria among others you can find them under a rock they’re everywhere and they have so much mystery because there are so many of them I just came from a conference about fungi, where they discussed how there are families of fungi that aren’t completely understood, including those that we encounter every day, but have never been genetically described. And it’s crazy how these microorganisms do so many things, yet often go unnoticed. They’re things that are transparent to us, to the human eye.

5:16But that’s what’s mysterious. As the doctor who wrote the book Microbial Love also said a very good book which precisely discusses how microorganisms are present in everything, including love, right? We leave traces everywhere. Everyone has their own microbiome profile. However, I agree with Caesar. It’s a fascinating world, and what attracted me most, historically, I read a book I think I read in high school called Microbe Hunters.

5:42It explains the history of microbiology, and it’s fascinating. Well, I was hooked with the stories of Robert Koch and everything the book explains in a very simple way. However, I initially wanted to study microbiology, but the program didn’t exist at UAQ at the time I was studying, so I pursued biotechnology instead. But a year later the microbiology program opened, and I couldn’t switch anymore. However, I have always been drawn to studying microbes or microorganisms.

6:08But, well, I don’t regret it, and here we are. And now that we are talking about microorganisms, this is a huge topic, right? Microorganisms include an incredible variety of tiny living forms. Could you explain which specific microorganism you focus on and what roles they play? Why are they so important? You had mentioned they are really essential for life on Earth, that without them, nothing could really develop. Could you tell us more about why they are so fundamental and give some examples of microorganisms? Well, I study different types of microorganisms, but the truth is, the last 10 years I’ve specialized in mycorrhizal fungi. The term mycorrhiza means myco, which comes from fungus, and rhiza from root. It consists of a symbiotic association between approximately 86 % of all terrestrial plants and soil fungi and their roots. So, in this association, there’s an exchange. There’s a transfer of photosynthesis products, mainly carbon, from the plant to the fungus. The fungus, obviously, all organisms need carbon, right?

7:08And the fungus transfers nutrients like nitrogen and phosphorus and cations to the plant in addition to water and protection against certain biotic and abiotic stresses. This symbiosis is universal. It emerged approximately 406 million years ago. It’s everywhere in the world and has essentially helped forests, shrubs, and grasses develop in the way we currently see them. So, it’s a symbiosis that was fundamental to the current planet as we know it. In terms of functions, its main function is plant nutrition under certain environmental conditions, not in all environmental or contextual conditions. Ecology is a relational science, and in certain conditions this symbiosis isn’t so beneficial, but in many others it is. And also on a global scale, it’s been elucidated that it definitely regulates the cycles of some nutrients like nitrogen and phosphorus. So certain steps of these cycles depend a lot on both these fungi and bacteria that associate with these fungi. And what’s been changing my mindset a bit in recent years is that, well, I’m not a microbiologist, but we all have some microbiology training where you separate the type of organism a lot. With mycorrhizae, what’s been known since about 2016 -2017 is that in the hyphae of these fungi lie certain bacteria. This is known as the hyphospere, and these bacteria are the ones mineralizing degrading the nitrogen and phosphorus that they pass first to the fungus, and the fungus passes it to the plant. So, it becomes a relationship of three, but it can also be a relationship of thousands or millions. I’m increasingly thinking of microbiology as a system science because it involves the complete system that needs to be investigated. And these Haifa you mentioned,

8:38the ones that have this symbiotic or cooperative relationship with plants and fungi, could you explain a bit more what Haifa actually are? We can’t see them, right? So how does this interaction happen? Sure. Just as a plant has thick roots and then fine roots and then ultra -fine roots, a fungus, a mushroom, when you see a mushroom, the mushroom is like the tip of the iceberg. Under that mushroom, in the soil, there’s an enormous network of these hyphae that are very, very, very thin. They’re very thin because they have to enter the root, and they also have to explore the soil. So being so thin and so small, in fact, they can explore regions of the soil that the plant alone cannot. It’s been calculated that in pine, when the pine is associated with these hyphae of these fungi, the volume of soil it explores can be 20 times greater than when the pine is alone, when it’s without these fungi, because they’re so, so, so, so thin that in a teaspoon, in a gram of soil, there can be 200 meters of these hyphae if you laid them out end to end. It’s a very complex network that goes in all directions, and in that network is transported, on one hand, the carbon that goes from plants to fungi, and also the nutrients that go the rest of the nutrients that go from fungi to the plant. And what can you tell us about what you’re doing, Bernardo? And that network that mobilizes nutrients, that minerals, it’s the mobilization issue, right? We were seeing, for example, a case where when you inoculate a small pine with leucaria, a little fungus, it has a higher probability of surviving when planted, right? And it’s precisely because they help each other. It’s a mutualism.

10:09So that’s one of the functions, as Cesar says. It’s an impressive complexity, a network of networks that communicates, and, as he said, they’re not bipartite, tripartite interactions. They go into infinity types of interactions. And, well, we also know that when there are positive interactions, negative ones, that is, when there’s competition or when there are mutualisms, there’s also how it behaves, or, well, let’s say how there are certain behaviors when comparing. For example, if the environment changes, there can be parasitism at the beginning, and there’s a whole gradient up to almost a mutualism. So this is a function of what the environment is like, if it has many available resources, or if it’s a very hostile place, very dynamic, with many changes over time.

10:50That makes those interactions change. They’re not interactions that are always fixed, but there can be competition sometimes, and that same node, that same microorganism, can have other competition with an environmental change, right? So it’s very, very complex to try to predict what connection will give what response. We study it in microbial ecology. It’s known as the emergent properties of ecosystems. All of this, let’s say, ecosystem services, ecosystem health. And it’s due, as we know, to this impressive diversity of interactions that exist especially in the soil, in the oceans.

11:27It’s everywhere, but it’s precisely that, the functional part, is what keeps our planet alive. To complete biogeochemical cycles, all the members are needed. So yes, it’s impressive and wonderful, all that repertoire that exists, invisible, but that’s there, that functional repertoire. What you’re saying is really interesting, because when we talk about interactions, we usually think only in extremes. It’s either competition or mutualism, and that’s where it tends to stop.

11:56But as you mentioned, there’s a whole gradient and a dynamic process that changes over time depending on the resources these microorganisms have. Building on that idea of interactions and functionality, could you tell us how fungi and their relationships are important for sustainability and human health in general for our future? How is this knowledge being applied? I’d say there’s enough very high -quality research showing that certain types of agriculture, like intensive tilling, excess pesticides, everything you intuitively believe is harmful, really is harmful to these types of mycorrhizal fungi. 95 % of the crops most consumed in the world depend highly on these mycorrhizal fungi. So, for example, intensive tilling completely destroys these networks. The same with pesticides, they also have harmful effects. So I’d say you have to maintain what in plant ecology is known as a positive plant soil feedback, and this means that the effects of the plant on the following generations or on its own future, the leaf litter a plant drops, the acids that roots excrete positively affect the same plant and the plants that come after.

12:56That’s positive feedback, and for that positive feedback, these fungi are fundamental to achieving it and maintaining it. Positive feedback, we also know that conventional agriculture generates negative feedback, in fact, so I’d say in that way these fungi are fundamental, looking at it from the agricultural sense. Then there’s another topic I don’t handle, but that, obviously, is very relevant, and it’s more like the culture and gastronomy around fungi. Without a doubt, they’re a very important food source for many cultures around the world. An alternative, healthy, economical source. Also, for example, you mentioned interactions with bacteria and plants, and there are lichens too. I’m not sure if you work much with lichens, but we often see them growing on the trunks or the trees. They depend a lot on environmental conditions and exposure. If the air quality is good, these lichens can survive.

13:48Could you tell us a bit more about that whole network you mentioned, how it is all connected and how this depends on the environment? For example, those lichens that most people have seen on the trees, they often die when there’s a lot of pollution. How does that interaction among plant and bacteria and fungus work? Is there a kind of balance maintained among… Among the three, is it a form of symbiosis or collaboration between them or how does it actually work? Yes, it would really be like something applied, for example, also continuing with what Cesar said about if you know what group of microorganisms, for example, certain bacteria that are used for bioremediation, contaminated soils, for example, there are certain strains that are more efficient at degrading certain compounds than others, so that’s already biotechnology, but there are also microorganisms applied to a relationship in which you know that microorganism needs a certain metal or certain nutrient, and you can use it to your advantage to clean a place of residues. it also occurs to me for example everything that’s done with what we do a little in our laboratory which has to do with biodiversity to know the health status of natural systems and compare them against systems as you are mentioning now contaminated for example we currently have a case study of contaminated rivers where samples are taken upstream when the river is still relatively clean and a gradient is created as waste is dumped into the river obviously the microbial communities of freshwater fungi undergo significant changes

15:20and well this is precisely to evaluate the types of microorganisms present especially to prevent diseases for example also in the case of agroecology we know that certain pests and pathogens are present even though they may not be causing pathogenic action We are aware of their presence, even if they do not have a pathogenic effect. So, it’s also something applied toward disease prevention, right? Everything done in microbial ecology has numerous applications, and this is especially true with the latest techniques. Cesar won’t let me lie in recent years. With new technologies, it’s increasingly simpler to sequence, for example, soil samples, water samples, and be able to know what microorganisms inhabit there. That is, start to understand a bit more all this invisible world.

16:08Also, when we talk about soil profiles or sequencing, identifying what microorganisms are present, for instance, in soils used for monocultures, the profile really changes, right? These soils lose nutrients, and that’s often why so many pesticides are used. So through a soil profile, as you mentioned, We can understand the composition of microorganisms and assess how healthy or degraded the soil is. How could this kind of applied knowledge help, for example, a farmer with their crops?

16:46How could they use this information in practice? Very good question. Very, very good question. And yes, I think it concerns me quite a bit because I’m somewhat or quite involved with FAO, precisely defining soil biodiversity indicators. Always, all your life, defining a biodiversity and soil health indicator is a very complex topic. We, with several colleagues, published an article in Science in the year 2021 on this topic called Essential Soil Biodiversity Variables, and there we had about 13 variables, root characteristics, population abundance, genetic diversity, microbial biomass, respiration and enzymatic activity, and, well, some others I don’t remember. That’s like a baseline we launched in science, and now from FAO we’re making a system of, what’s this called, categories, like a tier system that has category 1, 2, and 3, that we recommend to all the countries of the world. So this type of declaration is always voluntary. Countries voluntarily subscribe to monitor or not monitor soil biodiversity through these variables we recommend. Those that belong to category 1 are soil organic carbon, microbial biomass, respiration, and enzymatic activity.

17:45If I remember correctly, those four, whether they’re the most representative or not, has to do with discussion. But it also has a lot to do with discussion simply what people can access to measure. And those four are much more feasible than metabarcoding, which, for example, Bernardo mentioned before, which for many countries continues to be something costly, although now the costs are much cheaper than 10 years ago. But sure, I’d say I like those. Soil organic carbon, microbial biomass, respiration, and enzymatic activity. Those four I think are okay. I think they can give a good indication of how a soil is, in addition to the classic chemical variables. Carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, cations, pH. But it’s always a very difficult topic. You can measure a hundred things easily on a soil, and you’d never finish describing the complexity of a soil. Yes, it is super interesting and super complex, really. Of course, what one seeks is to try to make everything as synthesizable as possible so people can use it. And well, we talk about things like food security, contamination and that. But how do you think the study of all this microbial world connect also with conservation, with mitigation or adaptation to climate change, which are all other pressing problems right now?

18:58well equally a very interesting topic because something that’s been attempted as a national effort at mexico is the soil biodiversity atlas in which natural sites are being monitored and they want to see monitoring over time which is precisely one of the variables almost never measured over time that is the dynamism of systems and it’s very interesting well and also relevant for food security all this is part of conservation In fact, if we can’t compare what a conserved system is from a disturbed system, if we don’t know the difference… In academia, you can view it from a taxonomic perspective, where researchers aim to describe new species up to more applied endeavors, such as reforestation. For example, integrating interactions with small fungi can improve seedling survival. So, there are also gradients of possibilities. all of conservation is the foundation in fact well for us in the biodiversity atlas it was the foundation they’re the first points that were done which is precisely to see how conservation sites are and how well they are prospering in order to take actions in public policy above all generate information that’s useful to decision -makers in government because one thing is what we want as taxonomists or as biologists another thing is really what people in the field need to make decisions for example you could decide if we need more fertilizer in this place or if you have already rhizobia this won’t be necessary because when this rhizobia is present in the roots it will be moving so much nitrogen around and you can save up to fifty per cent of chemical fertilizer when you know

20:30very well how your agroecological system works that’s a little example conservation for me is the foundation and we have to keep fighting for it What you mentioned is very important, because in reforestation projects, for example, people rarely consider the condition of the soil before planting. They usually just focus on the tree species, even after… Events like floods, fires, years of deforestation or extractive activities occur. So yes, it is crucial to take the soil into account in conservation efforts. Resources are often invested without first addressing what truly needs to be done with the soil. And then, when the trees don’t grow or die, people say the deforestation failed. What you were explaining about what makes a healthy soil profile. what compounds, nutrients, and biodiversity it should have is essential. Knowing which nutrients are available for certain species to grow and what kind of organisms live in their soil, not just what kind of tree to plant, is key to restoring ecosystems effectively. Yes, I think it’s a very exciting time to be a soil ecologist. It’s a very beautiful career. In fact, Edward Wilson, in his last book, said that if he could, like, have a scientific career again, he’d be a soil ecologist because in the last 10 or 15 years, a large number of papers have appeared, many, many papers on soil macroecology, which are partly what have inspired things like these soil biodiversity

22:01atlases, both global and national. And one of them I remember is by Aaron Cameron from 2019, a nature ecology and evolution paper, showing there’s a mismatch. There’s no concordance between hotspots of biodiversity above ground and biodiversity below ground. In many regions of the world they coincide, but in many other regions they don’t coincide. Here in Chile, it’s the case that the area with the most plant diversity, or above ground diversity, is located in the coastal range, around latitude 37 degrees south more or less.

22:29But where there’s the most below -ground diversity is in the southern region, and it’s globally recorded that there’s a mismatch in biodiversity hotspots. Of course, to declare a new protected area, even today, the vast majority of legislation and norms are based on above -ground diversity. So, efforts like what Bernardo is doing with the Biodiversity Atlas of Mexico, I would hope to change that discourse a bit and that logic in making decisions. I know one successful case in Estonia, but because in Estonia there are all these people who work a lot with what we do, and they did manage to declare a small protected area. It’s a tiny country based on fungal diversity, for example. It’s the only case I’m aware of.

23:05And what you’re saying about reforestation is super important, because precisely with another atlas we produced this year, which I have the fortune of being a co -author of, is one in the journal Nature. We also show that only 10 % of mycorrhizal biodiversity hotspots globally, of mycorrhizal fungi, are found under a protected area of less than 10%, while it’s 30 % for macroorganisms. This leads to a whole discussion on how to choose a protected area and a biological corridor, based on what metrics. I saw some of this at the last COP in Cali with the EO. Wilson Foundation. They’ve produced some super good maps for all countries, but these maps continue to be based on the numbers of endemic species of macroorganisms. So, the next step they have to do those maps, they produce them for all countries to say, well, if you protect all these zones, you reach your goal of 30 by 30, that is, declare 30 % protected by the year 2030, but they continue ignoring soil diversity.

23:56Precisely talking about how there isn’t so much regulation in the soil, I mean, there’s a lot of regulation in the country. In Mexico, there is regulation regarding air quality and water. Well, the law is something that’s written right, but it’s another thing whether they apply it. But there’s nothing related to soil. Nothing, nothing. And yes, this case of Estonia is very interesting, right? We’ll have to see. Well, as they say, it’s a very small place. That’s where the experts in fungal ecology are. But yes, it would be something. Well, a decision in our favor. Information we can use in favor of remediating a zone or doing good reforestation.

24:32Basically applied knowledge. Yes, that’s true. And something I want to bring up is if you had a farmer in front of you and could offer them tools to improve their soil or change their techniques beyond using pesticides, what tools or strategies would you suggest? And on the other hand, if you were advising scientists working in conservation, for example, in designating protective areas, what kinds of tools or approaches would you recommend to them? I’ve seen that things that are intuitive, like crop rotation, cover crops. Recently, they invited me to a cattle rancher’s congress and asked me to help them understand soil management.

25:11They had done soil analyses. They have this rotational regenerative ranching. I think, for example, things like that work, and I liked that they’re ranchers. They’re people with many resources, but who have already understood this discourse a bit and have understood the importance of the soil and its biodiversity a bit. And of course, the central message I gave them is the same thing I just said a few minutes ago, to characterize a soil that’s not one or two variables, there are many variables, because sometimes, especially if people come from classic agronomy schools, they stick with measuring phosphorus, measuring whether there is little or high phosphorus, but it’s not that simple. So, I think that message was clear to them. They’re doing monitoring.

25:48That’s what’s important, because many times these techniques appear that promise to save the world and suddenly you see they put a lot of money into, I don’t know, into regenerative agriculture, regenerative ranching or whatever. But it works for a few years, but there’s no long -term monitoring. It’s the same criticism I have against carbon credits. It works for a decade. What happens in 20 years? What happens in 30 years with that supposedly captured carbon? So, thinking in those long terms, thinking for our children or our grandchildren still costs us as humans. But yes, all the intuitive techniques, being mainly crop rotation, is very good for any soil, living fences, cover crops, polycultures work. Well, there are two Colombians here, and I think in Mexico it’s very similar. There are many things our grandparents did. My grandfather did these things. Now when you research it, scientifically make a lot of sense. When coffee is grown, in the middle of the coffee they put yucca, they put plantain, they put corn, they put beans, they put a lot of things. And that’s how it is all the time most small -scale coffee in Colombia has been that way because coffee takes two years. So, you have to do something with that land in the meantime, and people did that for survival, not for any environmental discourse, but it worked super well. And also in the Colombian countryside, chicken manure is used, coffee husks are reused.

27:00There’s a logic there that comes from much earlier that now if they study it at UCLA or at Stanford, because I’ve seen people from Stanford who study these topics. Okay, but many people, many of our ancestors were doing it, have done it all their lives. So, I like to always give those examples because, especially in an industry like Colombian coffee, where the majority continues to be small coffee growers and it’s done nationally coordinated, I think it works quite well. I’ve published some studies where we calculated that precisely the carbon captured in coffee polycultures with Guama, the genus of Guama is Inga, and they capture almost as much as a native forest. So, it works very well. And what could you recommend to a scientist working in conservation? Lots of courage. Above all, perseverance. Here in Mexico, it’s impressive there is a large amount of conflict of interest over land use. In fact, it’s a whole issue, this conservation thing.

27:49There’s something they coined as narco -conservation, which are those zones where nobody can enter, and precisely because it’s so unsafe there, the natural system is very well conserved. And there are biologists who still dare to go to these places and say, conservation is increasing in these hot spots. That was in 2016, I think. around there they did a study where they precisely saw how michoacan started to see a lot of conservation again in zones where there was strong beeforestation but precisely because of the insecurity so yes it’s a very ugly issue that actually has to do with a conflict of interest not only in the country but from outside due to the extractivism itself that you were saying so yes it is a complex issue and in fact the soil biodiversity atlas so much so that the points we’re missing we have almost four hundred sites now and the points we’re missing are the most dangerous zones the narco conserved zones as you could say conservation is also worth while especially for those who are biologists in the protection part of their favorite organism the macro -organisms are very beautiful the axolotl and all that part But for someone who studies microbes, they have to be very enamored with their microbes. What I’d recommend above all is a lot, a lot of strength, a lot of courage.

29:02Yes, especially in Latin America, it can become something not so pleasant to dedicate yourself to conservation. In the doctorate where I teach here at Santo Tomas University in Chile, the dean herself personally teaches a course called Fundraising for Conservation. That’s something I don’t know how to do. I’ve depended on state money all my life. I don’t know how to knock on a private entity’s door and have them give me money to do conservation. I don’t know how. So, for new people entering this world, I’d recommend that they develop all those soft skills I don’t have. I know how to compete scientifically, but those soft skills, no, I don’t have them. And the truth is, with how uncertain our politicians and our science ministries in our countries are well, also in the United States, of course you have to look at sources other than the state, and that’s super important to learn from the beginning. Exactly. We were heading in that direction with our next question. How has your experience been working in science in Latin America in general?

29:51Considering that this podcast is listened not only here in Latin America, but also in places like Australia and elsewhere. Could you share what that experience has been like for you? And how would you compare it with the experiences or collaborations you’ve had with research groups in other parts of the world? I always have an ambivalent or bittersweet answer to that type of question. I’m very happy with what I’ve done, with what I’ve achieved. I’m very happy, very satisfied was my scientific career, that I have no doubt about. But I also know that if I were somewhere else, perhaps I could do more, like I could cover more, could have more students, do more things, so I always have that ambivalence.

30:27But the truth is, what I’ve done up to now has been very satisfying. It’s been difficult, but it’s been very satisfying. Chile, at least the 11 years I’ve been here, has been stable in its funding, whether there’s a right -wing government or a left -wing government, it’s been stable. Now, slowly, I’ve been getting into the internal workings of science. I have to evaluate projects. I’m part of the Chilean Academy of Sciences, and of course, you start to understand things you didn’t understand before, and you also start to understand the problems, the problems that exist, which are many. Bureaucracy is one, for example. The bureaucracy here is insane. It’s something I think I know many examples of. In fact, a Colombian who was my professor in the PhD, he left for New Zealand because here in Chile, the bureaucracy got to him. So, I think that’s one of the detriments, and it happens because our governments don’t have confidence in scientists. When you report on a project here, at least, I don’t know how it is in Mexico, but here you have to keep every little paper, every invoice, every receipt, every single thing, absolutely everything. So, you spend your time, your energy, your resources on all this administrative and bureaucratic work. In other countries, it’s not like that. I’ve worked with NGOs. With Spoon, it’s super easy, so I think that’s a big, big detriment. But in the middle of all that, I tend to see the positive side, and the truth is, it’s been quite satisfying, despite being the last country in science investment like 0.4%. So obviously everything is lacking. A lot is lacking, yes. And you, Bernardo? Well, very similar. In fact, we’re very similar. Really, I also feel

31:59I’ve done well. I’ve been lucky, but I know that sadly in our country, not everyone has the same opportunities. There is quite a bit of inequality, and in science, in academia, in the academic part, well, I understand it has its good parts, its murky parts too, but the part, let’s say, that always attracted me, the one I feel comfortable with, is discovering new things and trying to devise new solutions. I’ve always seen it from an applied point of view, so I feel we’re fortunate because not many people have the time to be thinking like a scientist. There are many people who simply have to work 24 -7, and we who have the time and can try to entangle this network we call reality, and give it an explanation for a benefit, well, let’s say, of our society, I see it from that side, like putting my grain of sand toward knowledge. So it’s always been something that has guided me. It’s that part of knowledge. I feel very comfortable with that part. i feel what i’m doing right now is making certain breakthroughs in the knowledge that exists like we’re discovering new things that hadn’t been discovered and that’s for the benefit for example of application to agroecology for example i mentioned the little fungus that’s already being implemented for reforestation allowing plants to survive well it’s something that’s already being done there’s already very good work many people involved in that work are very good i’ve had the experience of collaborating with very good people and especially young people i don’t want you to think i’ve really liked seeing in mexico lately these generations that are know -it -alls from the start and are very good at the scientific part they make very good insights

33:30and i think i’ll stick with that that’s really what i like about science and i suppose also in academia i have to give like precisely the tudor part teaching well how things are done explaining the theory seeing it from an applied point of view too explaining to students why this information is important for the farmer from a multidisciplinary point of view especially because we already had a stage in our country where a lot of science was done like it’s not bad to ask about the immortality of the crab as we say doing very specific studies of something that well it’s frontier knowledge it’s excellent very good but given the economic situation our country was in i feel there had to be a more applied turn so that knowledge wouldn’t also become extractivism because you also saw this brain drain Many brilliant minds in our country left, and now a reverse phenomenon is happening.

34:20All the people who were at other universities are returning, and I feel that’s also something very good, that I’m very interested in everything that’s happening. It’s a good initiative. All these collaborators were making these new networks. I feel we are well. Obviously, we have many complaints. We all always complain about bureaucracy in science everywhere, actually. In Mexico, bureaucracy is everywhere, not just in science. and that’s precisely it seeing it from the point of view that we’re going to do things well and do the best possible with the information we have to do something good for society information for decision makers so they can make the best choice using science in our favor it’s very idealistic but there we go yes yes because it’s also complicated exactly i completely agree bureaucracy and in some cases corruption in how funds are managed at least speaking from Colombia’s perspective, are definitely issues that hold things back.

35:17And as you said, there’s often no real collaboration or open dialogue between scientists and the government. You have to prove everything, absolutely everything. And on top of that, there’s little continuity in projects. I would add that as well, maintaining long -term projects is very difficult. But it’s not just a problem in Latin America. I have also seen it in Australia, at least to some extent.

35:48Still, what you have done is fantastic. It’s fascinating to look into this world of microorganisms, this micro -universe we rarely think about and realize that so much of what sustains us, like food, antibiotics and medicines, actually comes from there. We often take it for granted. as if these things just appear from nowhere. But if we don’t take care of our soils, those microorganisms, the entire microcosm, we might end up without anything to eat at all. I love that we are keeping things on a positive note. But following up on that last point, what do you think are the main problems or weakness within the academic systems where most scientific work takes place? And how do you think young researchers could help improve or change these issues? Good question. There are many problems in academia. One that’s universal, that’s global, is how we’re evaluated. In the recent Nobel Prizes, someone was saying on Twitter that the person who won the Nobel Prize in Medicine had an age index of 21. I have 21 and I never appeared in the Stanford ranking she has 35, 40 publications. So she’s someone who, under the current logic that manages the academic system, they wouldn’t even consider her because she publishes little, is little cited, but wins a Nobel. So, there’s a very perverse logic in how we’re evaluating ourselves and what we consider success. And what does the number of publications translate to?

37:17That’s universal and, well, that triggers many other problems. Journals that are very bad, there are journals where I get invitations that I don’t even review. So yes, there’s an incentive system that’s a bit poorly designed. And on the other hand, a fear that generates a bit for me, at least in Latin America, in Colombia, I know they’ve already stopped funding all basic science, and that would be problematic because here in Chile, our politicians constantly talk to us about this issue of stopping funding basic science. All of us who dedicate ourselves to biodiversity can say goodbye. So, I also see that as a bit problematic. In the middle of everything, there are things science is still based on merit, but I think they’re becoming fewer, unfortunately.

37:53It’s increasingly more important to sell something or be very present in the news. That’s always caused me a lot of curiosity. What you’re doing now with this podcast, this is science communication, and this is what in Chile is called community engagement. This really is that. For our universities, if we take a photo because we had a meeting with the governor, they consider that community engagement. So there’s also a logic that’s a bit strange, like showing yourself a lot. And I don’t know, I don’t feel comfortable with that logic. I like these types of scenarios much more. Yes, that’s very true. And what you had mentioned is extremely relevant. We actually had Dr. Ana Maria Cheto on the podcast, and she explained the whole business behind scientific publications and everything that’s sadly quite dirty in the system. Because the real currency of prestige has become the impact factor and the number of papers published by researchers. As a result, the focus often shifts away from the quality of the science itself.

38:55And as you said, it is not only about predatory journals. This whole system encourages the problem to persist. Auditors and universities are being charged absurd amounts of… money to publish. Well, the publishing houses take all the profits, including money from taxpayers, and many times the authors don’t even retain the copyright to their own work. It is something that needs to change. And in some places, I think this is slowly starting to. But what you mentioned about sensationalism also has a big impact on science. Certain topics become trendy. And then all the funding flows in that direction, for example, towards space research, while other urgent context -relevant issues are neglected. That’s one of the major criticisms we often discuss in science. And what do you think, Bernardo? Yes, well, the same.

39:59There are many dark things in academia. starting with reviewers when you want to be a reviewer they don’t pay you and you end up doing work that supposedly is only to have that title and also there are so many examples right of the monopoly of certain publishers that in fact there are already articles about that three or four reviews have come out about the monopoly that exists in academia and those who manage it I was actually commenting, I think, to Caesar around this in the book Jurassic Park, in the original by Michael Crichton. There’s a reference to Nature magazine precisely talking about that topic.

40:33Imagine, that book is from the 90s. I think they call it expensive advertising or something like that, but the point is that already since then they were seeing that critical part, right? Of who they accept articles from, what research group you’re in, and if you have a relationship with that group and you know the editor, you made it, right? some examples it shouldn’t happen but there are documented cases for example peer review has fallen into excessive commercialism becoming unstoppable it’s an evolutionary hypothesis it would be a red queen now everyone is constantly wanting to publish it doesn’t matter what’s published the quality doesn’t matter The point is the number, and since resources depend on that, I think there the question you also asked, but I don’t think we need to answer, is what would young people do? The new scientists. It’s precisely to try to change that scheme. We already know that’s going to increase inequality. Yes, we already saw that’s going to suffocate the scientific method we adore so much. Well, almost. We have it there like it’s a Bible, but really it’s a matter of common sense. these groups that have already formed to control academic research it’s very difficult to try to remove them i don’t know how we’re going to get there There would have to be a revolution of academics internally from below, which is basically what we see with Sci -Hub, this Ukrainian who started putting out free publications precisely because of the academic need in other countries that can’t afford to pay those exorbitant prices. Yes, of course.

42:00It’s part of what can be done. And, well, there are those who dare and manage from those more eastern side of the planet to set up their pirate publication servers. Another issue that comes up recently is copyright in the context of artificial intelligence. Many people are using AI not just as a tool, but for everything. So it becomes difficult to determine or verify who actually wrote what. And that’s where it really comes down to the ethics of each scientist or author.

42:33But we are more or less heading in that direction. Thank you very much, Bernardo and César. It has been a pleasure having you here on the program. Thanks for sharing all your knowledge and for being here. Thank you very much for doing this. Thank you so much. Pillars of life. And the planet’s health depends on them. Beneath our feet exists a universe that breathes, communicates and cooperates.

43:16And understanding it is also understanding ourselves. Science Behind the Glass, Illuminating the Human Side is an independent podcast created and hosted by Linda Hernández and Daniel Esguerra with the invaluable support of our dedicated technical director Rafael Giordano and original music by our colleague and today’s guest Bernardo Águila. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, TikTok and visit our website for more stories, updates and resources. Don’t forget to subscribe and share this podcast with your friends and communities to amplify these essential narratives together.

43:48And if this post podcast inspired you consider supporting us with a contribution through paypal you just have to click the support us button on our website as this contribution helps to continue this project and keep growing