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Transcript

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0:01Who are the characters behind science? This is Science Behind the Glass, illuminated in human sight. In this podcast, we unveil the human side of laboratories and science. Scientists share personal experiences and we discuss their meanings from different perspectives and fields of research. Welcome to Science Behind the Glass, the podcast where we explore the fascinating intersection of science and everyday life. Today, through the lens of one of the world’s most beloved treats, chocolates. In today’s episode, we delve into the intriguing world of entomology, ecology, and management of plates with our special guest, Dr. Jerome Nigoret. Dr. Nigoret serves as a senior entomologist in a multinational confectionery.

0:48His research focuses on understanding insect behavior, chemical signaling, and developing sustainable plate control strategies in cocoa. Jerome did his PhD in entomology and chemical ecology at the University of Montpellier. and a postdoc in the University of Georgia at the U.S. Department of Agriculture, before working as a consultant for Negrete Ecology Consulting and also working as an expert consultant at the International Atomic Energy Agency. Thank you, Jerome, for being here. Jerome, what inspired you to specialize in the study of insects? Oh, well, insects, according to my aunt. I was actually spending all my time looking for bugs when I was a kid. So I don’t know if I’m French, obviously.

1:38So in France, we have two months of holiday during summer, the nice summer holiday. And usually your parents actually get rid of you and give you to your grandparents and spend holiday. And it happened that my grandparents are actually farmers and they have a huge farm and I was actually spending all my time. Following ants, protecting bees. I probably killed a lot of those insects. It’s not even funny, I’m sure. But I guess that’s what brought me here. And then during high school, I had two passions. Insect biology, still, and history. And, you know, I was not a very good student. So I thought maybe it’s going to be hard to find a job in history. So I decided to go to biology. And that’s how I’m here. Yeah, that sounds nice. Can you explain to us what is chemical ecology? So it’s a scientific discipline that explores the role of chemical communication in the interaction between organisms and their environment. So usually the chemical ecologists study production, release, and reception of chemical signals. So for example, how an insect can find another insect for reproduction using pheromone, or how an insect can find a host of plants, of fruits, in order to feed it. And that’s also using a chemical signal. So that’s chemical ecology.

2:55Something that is really interesting in your background is that you are working for a multinational company specializing in cocoa. And we want to know what led you to be a scientist in a multinational confectionery. Yes. Well, it’s actually my scientific field brought me there. And we’re so lucky. I did a postdoc at the U.S. Department of Agriculture in Miami, where I was studying the role of chemicals in the plant, those plants recognition for different pests, fruit flies and invasive bark litter.

3:28So, and how we can use this knowledge, the knowledge I was acquiring to try to manage those pests. So I was using, you know, the usual chemical ecology tools to recognize the chemical signature. gas chromatography, mass spectrometry, and things like that. And the confectionery company was located in the same building. And then they knew, they realized what type of work I was doing and told me that they have an issue in Southeast Asia about a pest that attacked cocoa and that was responsible for 40 % of losses in yield.

4:02So it’s not insignificant. That represents about 300 to 500 million US dollars per year just. for Indonesia. So first I thought, oh, I can actually find something useful for them. And I can, you know, find an attractant for the pest by comparing the different hosts, cocoa, longan, langsat, rambutan, you know, and comparing their chemical signals and then find which chemical is attractive to the pest and try to mass trap the pest in order to remove as many insects as possible. So the population is low enough that there is no significant economical impact. That was very naive. And it’s not that simple, obviously, but that’s how I made the connection with the company. It’s because they were located at the same place and they were interested about what I was doing because they were looking for something sustainable. Why not using pesticides? That’s a good question. So first, some studies were done, right? Interviewing a lot of farmers in the cocoa industry in Indonesia, and they were asking them, what do you think is the best solution to manage this pest? And by the high majority, they are talking about pesticides, right? Because the farmers in cocoa use a lot of pesticides.

5:10So when you develop a product and when you are proposing different services, you also have to take into account the culture and what the farmers are actually doing. And it’s going to be very hard for them to accept another alternative solution. So to answer you, Linda, pesticides are not excluded. I’m trying to work with them to try to choose better phytosanitary products, reduce the amount in order for them to actually use their pesticide in a better way, in order to actually use less.

5:40And alternatively, I’m doing research to develop alternative solutions to replace the pesticide. So the point is, there is three different ways here. There is short -term, where you have to work with the farmers and teach them how to use the atmospheric side. You cannot just tell them to not do that. Then, second, medium -term, you are developing solutions that will replace those. And third, it’s a longer term. I’m working with the IEA. I don’t know if we’ll talk about that at some point, but I’m working with the International Atomic Energy Agency. to develop long -term methodology where, for example, you can use sterol insect technique, where you sterilize male, and then you will release sterol male in the field in order for them to reproduce with cattle insects and decrease the population. No, that’s perfect.

6:22And also adding that the pesticides have side effects in other insects that are really important for pollinization. That’s correct. not only pollination, so beneficiary in general. That includes, you know, the natural enemies of the pests, predators, parasitoids, and as you said, pollinators. And so that’s also one of my goals is to make sure that I’m doing some field experiments where, you know, you try different phycocentric molecules and also how to apply them differently. Should you use them at the top of the canopy? Should you use them on the pot? So how are you going to put them on the branch, on the ground, whatever?

6:58and then to try to identify what is the least damaging for the beneficiary insect. Yes, it’s like a transition from one model to a better one. Yes, because you will not be able to just ask them to change, like that. Yeah, so with all your expertise and your opinion, what are the most pressing challenges facing sustainable agriculture and pest management today? And how do you see we can overcome them using this kind of transition? Yeah, so I’m going to talk about cocoa, I guess. This is what I know the most.

7:33And the main constraint is, if I can see it, it’s three that are a big, big problem for the cocoa industry worldwide, not just for the company I work for. There is deforestation. There is farmers leaving income, obviously, and sustainability that we just talked about. So deforestation is a tricky one, right? You have to imagine that the farmers are growing cocoa. They are usually not very wealthy. They are growing cocoa and they are selling their product, but they are trying to get the maximum from their trees. And at some point, the trees start to be less productive because they depleted all the richness of the soil. So what they do, especially in West Africa, they, okay, abandon this farm is not working.

8:17I’m going to cut the rainforest next door and grow cocoa or other plants there, right? So a big challenge because it’s beneficial for the farmers, but obviously not for the public or for the planet. So how these type of companies are trying to fight against that is by trying to do some traceability to try to understand where their beans, their cocoa beans come from and making sure that they know the history of the farm to make sure that they are not buying anything from a deforested area. So that’s how they do that, except that we are not talking about corn or wheat. In the US, we are talking about cocoa farmers in Southeast Asia or in Africa, meaning that it’s 100,000 of farmers that are actually supplying you. So doing the traceability is extremely complicated, but that’s what is in place for that deforestation. The second is sustainability. We talk about that, you know, trying to use less pesticide, which is obviously a challenge because we need to do research and alternative solutions to that. And the third is a farmer living income, which is that’s definitely an issue, right? For cocoa farmers. don’t make much money under the poverty level. And one of the challenging things is everybody would think, well, we just have to pay them more. Well, that’s not as easy as it sounds, right? The price, the cocoa price is actually worldwide. It’s global.

9:34Like you buy your beans in Latin America, the same price will be in West Africa or in Southeast Asia. Those are the three main continents. But 80 % of the cocoa production comes from West Africa. meaning that the price depends on the weather. The weather in Ivory Coast or Côte d ‘Ivoire and Ghana will impact the entire worldwide prices. So good weather, more production in West Africa, price drop, you have difficulty to eat in Southeast Asia or in Latin America. So what we are trying to do is actually part of my job is to make sure that we increase the yield. In order to increase the yield, you have various solutions, but one of them is to reduce the losses.

10:10If you can reduce the 40 % losses due to pests and diseases, that’s quite significant. And of course, identically, we try to teach the farmer to do diversification and agroforestry so they can make money not only on cocoa. Because, you know, the problem for an industry that relies on cocoa means the guy, if the farmers don’t make enough money, he will cut this cocoa and put rubber or oil buying, right? So you don’t want that. So it’s okay. You want to make sure that they are making enough money, even if it’s not with cocoa, even if it’s selling vegetables or putting agroforestry timber, you know. And what do you think are the challenges combining science and industry based on your extended experience?

10:49Yes. Okay. That I’m going to talk about my experience. A lot of researchers will disagree. Fair enough. I don’t know if it’s ignorance, who is to blame, but I used to work for academia. Then I worked for quite a long time for the government and now for the industry. When I used to work for academia, okay, my networking was not predictable, of course, but I was not aware about the industry or even that the industry was doing science at all. I never even crossed my mind, right? But now that I work for the industry, I realize that not only do they do the research that I used to do, but they also do from the basic research, but also we have a missing step as a scientist.

11:27So as scientists, we usually fall short and we tend to believe that… It’s not our responsibility to implement the product and services that result from our research. For example, one of my jobs was, you know, okay, there’s this space. I work for the government or academia. There is this space. I’m trying to understand the ecology, the behavior. I want to demonstrate why this space is attractive to this host. I publish the result. Next project, right? So it’s like every day we are running a marathon, but we stop before the finish line. In the industry, what I learned from it, they are doing similar research, similar approaches, at least in the one that I’m working on. But the goal is to reach a final product and service. So in my example, you know, okay, I have this pest. I learn about it, ecology, behavior. Why is it important to do this specialty post? And now, how do I manufacture the lure based on my attraction? Can I do it myself? Okay, do it. I cannot do it myself. I will collaborate with a company that can do that. Then you manufacture your layer. What do we do now with this layer?

12:27How can I deploy it to the farmer? So can I do it myself? Sure, because I have a lot of money. I work for a company. Or I don’t have the skill. I work with an agency, government agency, things like that. Industry is not going to fund you if there is not a final where it’s going to be deployed. I’m not talking about them getting money. I’m talking about spending money on something useful because at the end, we are all winning, even if it’s not bringing royalties. So that’s where I see the big gap. And none of the scientists or the researchers should be blamed on anything.

12:56I think it’s the universities and maybe some governments need to put this capability and offer this capability of collaboration and networking to the researchers themselves. And it’s like a mismatch between industry and the scientific world. And for example, I’ve seen that basic sciences are not a main interest, but actually they are necessary to do a process get profits.

13:23Yeah. No, that’s exactly what I’m trying to say is the fact that this basic science should have a step in the door of the applied science, not as a scientist, but okay, Linda, you are working with applied science. Here is my research. How can you make it live and not just publish and done? Yeah. Yeah, that’s what I meant. It’s in both ways. And that only your agency or your university should be able to provide that knowledge because some of them do, but not all of them.

13:52Yeah, in that same line, sometimes political action is seen as the only source of solution for environmental problems. How does your work contribute to the broader goal of environmental conservation beyond what you already told us in terms of reducing deforestation and the pesticide use? Yeah, so in my case, again, that’s my only experience with industry, but… Just with a little story that I was talking about, trying to teach the farmers how to use it, how to use, for example, their pesticide, you can reduce the volume of pesticide by 70 % to get the same result. It’s just incredible. It’s just because farmers are using pesticide and they don’t really know how. But if you are actually telling them 70%, that represents 270 tons of pesticide per year just for Indonesia, right? And same for plastic, for example. If you remember, you work in Ecuador. you see a lot of plastic sleeves that cover banana. Usually we saw that in banana because banana are big trees. We can really see that. In cocoa, it’s the same. There is ways to actually protect your crop from insects and diseases is by putting some plastic sleeve around the fruit. But of course, the sleeves and the farmers, what they do is they use it one per 25 pods per tree. There is 1,000 trees per hectare.

15:11you can increase so we are talking about millions and millions of plastic sleeves that are only used once is 25 000 sleeves per hectare per year so okay now for example you can definitely develop alternative measures to get rid of those plastic sleeves as well it can be physical barrier the same consequence, but maybe mildly negligible, or try to work on repellents and things like that. So this is how we contribute in our way to sustainability is to reduce the damages that is already done. The quest will be to make sure that we are actually increasing the sustainability the other way, but that’s probably other researchers doing that as well, of course. But me, it’s to make sure that what we are doing bad, we are reducing that. Very good. And tell us about that challenging project that you have worked on.

15:55how you overcome the obstacles that you have in that project? I don’t know. Well, challenges, when you do field experiments, you always have challenges. I was in Guatemala. I was supposed to go for three days. I was working for the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and I went there with my boss. And after three days, we were ready to get the plane. The plane was the day after, and a volcano exploded, the main volcano next to it. It was the main capital. And it was snowing ashes everywhere. So, of course, the flight was delayed. So we were waiting, waiting in the hotel for a couple of days more. A couple of days more, a tropical storm arrived. After everything was clean, a tropical storm arrived and put back all the ashes that were there. A couple of days more, a tropical storm stopped. The volcano stopped.

16:41We are ready to go to the airport. But then the airport closed. even longer for an issue that were, you know, like some domestic issues. And at some point, we were supposed to go back because my immigration was going to expire just after that. So it was a risk for my immigration that I needed to go back to the U.S. and I was stuck in Guatemala because of all those natural events. So what we did, we took a bus to go to El Salvador and the bus broke down at the border between El Salvador and Guatemala and we were stuck for several hours until another bus came. So finally, after 10 days, we were able to go back to the US and I was in trouble with my immigration.

17:20And yeah, so that was an interesting story. The first thing to remember about it is always planning in advance everything, including your immigration, because most of us are foreigners in a different country and that’s the most important thing to do here. Yeah, well, in that same line, you already told us some interesting stories, but maybe from your early years in biology, do you have any…

17:45Memorable experience that you would like to share with us? Maybe when you were starting in biology or in entomology? I don’t know. Memorable experience. I don’t know. However, I can share an advice to students that are listening. So when I was working at the government for the USDA, the USDA was not located in the university. It was separated from the university. And I realized that it was funny because the students that we were getting were never extroverts, but not always the brightest.

18:15And I realized that I had so many missed opportunities when I was a shy student, no matter if I was bright or not. That doesn’t matter. However, I realized that the ones that get out and that find a job are the ones that are going to knock on your door. Because industries or government is not looking for students. We have a lot of projects. We have some money sometimes. But we are not specifically looking for students because we don’t think about it, right? It will be, oh, I have that to do. I put that for later and I will do it later. But then there is a student coming, knocking at the door. Hey, do you have a project for me? Yeah, yeah, sure. here is 10 000 here is a project or whatever you know and um and that’s how those people actually succeed so it’s not the brightest it’s the one that actually knows how to do that not the one that stay at home so i wish i was a little bit more uh extrovert and courageous to do those things because that’s i was i didn’t realize that in miami it was just oh my gosh so yeah that is very good advice yeah i will i will definitely tell uh say something to uh like that to people just go to knock on doors and something also very important that i discovered then at working for the confectionery company, it would have never crossed my mind that a chocolate company would hire an entomology.

19:27Now it makes sense to me, but before it was impossible. Now I realize that all the companies that we can look around, there’s a lot of companies, but I’m pretty sure all of them have an entomology research somewhere. For example, Michelin, you know, the tire companies that work with rubber. Rubber, I’m sure there is field of rubber, and I’m sure there is pest on it, and I’m sure they do research on rubber and pest, et cetera, et cetera. I don’t know, Danone, whatever you like, name it. I’m sure all those companies actually do research and we are just unaware of it. So I would advise people to actually look around and think out of the box. Yeah, maybe there are many, many smart people in science that are just waiting for the academia or for the traditional path and they don’t take action or further action in different kind of approaches like the industrial approach. They have the potential to hire researchers in those areas. Yeah. And also, I think, if I remember when I was in academia, for the few people from industry, we already think, oh, they are doing a base. It’s not as exciting as what I’m doing. But at least some companies, I don’t know all of them, of course. but I’m doing the exact same type of research that I was doing in academia, plus the little bit, try to put it a little bit further for application. So some companies do exactly the same job than what we do in government or so. It’s just, so if we are looking for fundamental research, it should not

20:58stop you because there is fundamental research in those companies as well. Yeah. Not all of them, of course, but at least the one that actually sits there. Yeah, it’s just, it should be advertised the fact that we are not just up there. Don’t get me wrong, academia career is perfect and it’s great. I’m just saying that if you struggle because there is competition in the world, there is other opportunities. That’s what I meant. Yeah, and it’s not the only thing that you can do with a science degree. I don’t have any preferences.

21:28Everything is fun. It’s just a little bit different, but quite similar as well. Those are really good tips to have in mind. Remember, also, Linda, it’s not a factor that is for the industry. Absolutely not. We absolutely don’t care if you are 50 or if you are 20 or if you are 30 years old. Good to know. It doesn’t matter anything, right? You are paid for doing a job. And the retirement system is, I don’t know how it works for academia, but it’s not exactly the same. And depending on the country, it’s forbidden to discriminate on age. That’s true. But it’s good to reach out.

22:03Like I usually, you overthink and just wait until something just gets advertised on the need of the company, but you don’t knock the door. So we don’t learn to reach out people, actually. I know. I know. That’s why I blame the institution. Yeah, we should learn to do that. And maybe have seminars where the company advertises their thing. I don’t know. Because, you know, it’s where the money is. Look at Elon Musk. He’s actually using the rockets that NASA is using to send, you know, it’s pretty moving. Yeah, well, thank you very much, Jérôme, for taking the time to answer these questions. Yeah, I hope people will be able to understand my accent. I know I speak fast and I have a thick American accent. No, it was perfect.

22:52I think everybody will gain with the interview. Yes, thank you very much for accepting the invitation and for sharing these experiences. And good, really good advice. The connection between industry and academia has always been challenging. As Dr. Pujana mentioned in our previous podcast, they operate at different paces and their interests can sometimes diverge. Dr. Jerome also pointed out the lack of continuity in projects, which is a significant pitfall in academia. This issue is partially attributable to the institutions providing research funding, as they often fail to support continuity, either deeming it irrelevant or assuming projects are the same. What do you think, Dante? In the industry, there is a clear focus depending on the product. Efficiency and continuity are prioritized. However, in terms of sustainability, the industry and government agencies need to work shoulder to shoulder to ensure that ecosystems are protected. because they are the main source where industries obtain their goods or raw materials to obtain profit.

23:58Sometimes, companies still focus on short -term exploitation, but don’t ensure the availability of their resources in the long term. This is more frequent in illegal contexts or where the laws are weak or not enforced. Another crucial point Dr. Jerome raised is regarding job opportunities. In my experience, and I believe in yours too, Dani, Universities don’t equip us with the skills to market ourselves professionally, negotiate fees, or actively pursue a job opportunity. This is a significant disadvantage because we remain invisible to industries or companies until we secure a job and can demonstrate our skills, if given the chance. Even during my PhD, I attend seminars and job workshops to enhance my competitiveness.

24:46However, as a biologist, I’m not sure about other fields. But the advice that I received was quite general and didn’t greatly assist in security job interviews. For example, applying for government positions, use specific jargon and language that are crucial to at least getting an interview. But as a scientist, I wasn’t even familiar with this language or how to address the criteria or the selection criteria. These nuances are vital in security interviews, yet they often elude us. Many times, these kinds of strategies are just meant to help people find a job in a market that has several offers for many profiles.

25:28But profiles in science seem to be different from other professions. I don’t know if it’s the volume of jobs offered, the highly specialized profiles, or the general economic situation globally, but certainly not all the solutions to specialized human resources unemployment can come from the industry. Nowadays, companies offer opportunities to students who want to make internships or graduate thesis. But it seems there’s a few cases where this collaboration ends up in a secure job position, offering from the company. Many times, these collaborations are partially funded by governmental efforts. And once they are no longer paid to the companies, the interest in collaborating with the researcher fades out. I think industry only gives opportunities if they see profit in it. Many of their community support and environmental conservation programs are there for a reason.

26:19I’m not so sure that if there weren’t tributary benefits, environmental laws or social pressure, any of these corporate programs would exist. I know it sounds very cynical and I’m pretty sure that there are companies that genuinely care about these issues, but I don’t think the majority of them. To close this episode, we want to thank Dr. Jerome Nicolet for accepting the invitation to this podcast. This episode was inspired by curiosity. This podcast is well -funded and self -published by It’s Close. Support us by clicking the like button and subscribing in our YouTube channel. Follow us in Instagram.

26:58And also you can listen to all our previous podcasts in our official website, YouTube and Spotify. Original music by our colleague and friend Bernardo Agui.