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Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors, especially in names. Click any timestamp to jump to that moment in the audio.

0:01Who are the characters behind science? This is Science Behind the Glass, Illuminating the Human Side. In this podcast, we unveil the human side of laboratories and science. Scientists share personal experiences and we discuss their meanings from different perspectives and fields of research. Disclaimer, this is a translated version using AI voice for the guest. Welcome to Science Behind the Glass, Illuminating the Human Side. the podcast where we break down the barriers between language and science to make it accessible to everyone.

0:38Today, we have the honor of welcoming Valeria Castaneda, a Colombian researcher with an impressive background in evolutionary biology and scientific communication. Valeria is a PhD candidate in integrative biology at the University of California, Berkeley. She previously studied at the National University of Colombia. and holds a master’s degree in biological sciences from the University of Los Andes. She also earned a master’s in scientific communication from the University of Barcelona, which has allowed her to promote science as an inclusive tool, free from language barriers.

1:15In today’s episode, we will focus on how the dominance of English in science can create exclusions and barriers, and what we can do to build a more inclusive and diverse scientific landscape. Valeria, thank you very much for accepting this invitation and for being here with us. Hi, lovely to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation. What an honor. To start off, tell us what inspired you to pursue evolutionary biology. And what exactly is evolutionary biology and herpetology?

1:48Also, what was there a key moment in your life that led you down in this path? How do you end up connecting these with science communication? Wow, that’s a whole lifetime story. Let’s start with what is evolutionary biology? Basically, evolutionary biology is about understanding the history of organisms, why they are the way they are, where they live, why they behave and interact the way they do. It’s about understanding why we see them the way we do. So it’s kind of like studying history, but of creatures that aren’t human. I got into evolutionary biology because I really enjoyed the university class on the subject and I was also deeply interested in the philosophy of science. The development of evolutionary biology is very tied to the history of science, especially in Europe, and it sort of arose as a rebellious response to creationist worldviews.

2:39So, it started developing ideas about how organisms are historical entities, that they have a past, and that they are related to each other. I was really drawn to that theory. I loved understanding how theory and biology are deeply connected to philosophy. That fascinated me. Herpetology came later. The word herpeto actually comes from a root meaning monster, and herpetology is the study of what were once thought of as monsters, what we now know as reptiles and amphibians.

3:11I got into it because of a university class where I was randomly assigned to be the person in my group responsible for frogs. That meant I had to go out and collect and search for frogs. This happened during a field trip to the Colombian Pacific, in Nambi, Norino. And, it was incredible. Being around frogs, being able to touch them and see them through a new lens, it was magical. I found them beautiful. So, I thought, I want to study the evolutionary biology of frogs. But for one reason or another, I ended up studying the evolutionary biology of the creatures that eat frog snakes. So now I love snakes. I really like snakes. They inspire beautiful feelings in me, especially in terms of empathy because there’s so much fear, even hatred, around snakes.

3:59That’s why I also really like to name them, to talk about them as beautiful beings who deserve to live in this world. So yes, snakes are very dear to me. I love them. And the last question was, how does this relate to English and science? It connects because I was doing my master’s in Columbia on snakes that eat frogs. And at the end of the program, as is usual, I had to submit my thesis. Everyone, my classmates and also the professors, kept insisting, write the thesis in English, it’s better that way, you’ll be able to publish faster, and so on. And I really did try, like, with all my strength, to write the thesis in English. But at that time, it was absolutely impossible for me. I couldn’t even get past a single sentence in English. So I said, well, I still have to graduate, so I’m going to write it in Spanish. And I did. But during that internal struggle, like, why do I have to write it in English if it frustrates me so much if it’s not my language? That’s when I started developing thoughts about how unfair it felt for me to be expected to write in English. And it also made me realize how much easier it must be for native English speakers to write and succeed as scientists.

5:14From there on, I started noticing more and more of these inequalities throughout my academic path. At the public university where I studied in Colombia, we were often assigned readings in English. And I saw so many people, including myself, struggling not to understand the science but to understand the English. That’s a huge additional barrier we face when learning science in Colombia. That’s when I started forming these ideas, and later I pursued a master’s in science communication, which helped me develop them in a more formal way. Yes, what you are saying is incredibly important because I’m sure your experience resonates with so many people from non -English -speaking countries. And in my own personal case, like you mentioned, I really struggle. Through my undergrad and postgraduate studies, all the literature, all the theory on evolution. All the scientific articles were in English. And for me, at that time, it was my partner who helped me, almost like teaching a small child. He would sit down with me and read scientific articles or papers in English so patiently. But I know so many people don’t have that kind of support.

6:28Reading an entire article or paper in a foreign language is like doing the triple work. And translating it is even worse. It’s not just putting it in Google Translate. It has to make sense. It has to mean something. There is also a matter of lost opportunities on a professional level. For example, I didn’t want to go to an English -speaking country. I wanted to stay in my comfort zone.

6:54But then I started stepping outside of it and thinking, well, I really have to write this thesis in English. It was a huge challenge for me and it’s still… And it still is for many people. And that’s one of the biggest barriers imposing developing countries. Students want to apply for scholarships abroad, sometimes not even in English -speaking countries. But they are still required to have English proficiency because English is a dominant language, especially in science. And those language exams, they’re absolutely expensive and ridiculous. And they end up taking away opportunities from students. So now that you have shared with us some of these personal barriers, we know you have faced many challenges in communicating your research in another language, specifically in English. Yet, despite all that, you decided to pursue your PhD in the United States. What made you choose the U.S.? And what are the emotional challenges you face in your work, especially as a Latin American woman? Well…

8:03I don’t think I chose the country in the sense of I want to live in the United States. It was more like, here I have a work opportunity that allows me to work with Colombian species. Because something I’ve always tried to do and still strive for is this, research in Colombia is difficult, but I want to research Colombia. I don’t know how else to say it, but I hope that makes sense. Even though I’m not there. But thanks to funding, you have the opportunity to continue researching in Colombia. even if the funds came from abroad.

8:34Exactly. So I said, wherever they’ll accept me with a project on Colombian species, even if it’s in the US or Europe, I’ll go. And that’s how it happened. I’ve continued working during my PhD on the same snakes I studied in my master’s. What happened was that my thesis advisor here in the US said, yes, come with that project and develop it here. And I said, Yes, I want to, because truly, I wanted to do science that helps me understand the creatures from that territory.

9:05And also to stay connected with that space, because I think I remain deeply connected to the place where I was born. So that’s why I decided to come to the United States. It gave me that opportunity, and I kind of just went for it when it came along. What has it meant to be a Colombian woman, etc.? Many things. Many tough lessons, but also a lot of love and support from the Latino community. which I deeply value and who have carried me through really difficult times. Many of us here left our homes, so we end up building new families.

9:36I have a new family here. The hard part is that our new families also graduate from their PhDs, and then they leave. So it’s also a temporary space. It feels like this ongoing wave of migration, people arriving and leaving, arriving and leaving. So there’s this fluidity in our families. But building that family far from home has been something beautiful and really important for me. Still, American universities and honestly the whole US context have a long way to go in terms of accepting and understanding that this is already a Latin space. The US is already a Latin country.

10:13In California, for example, around 40 % of the population is Latino or the children of Latino immigrants. And they bring cultures and values that come from what we call Latin America. Yet despite that, universities don’t even have their official websites translated into Spanish, which, to me, is absurd. They don’t really offer support for Latino students. For example, I came here as a migrant, there are many ways to migrate, and I came as a PhD student with a visa. But many of the students here are children of first -generation migrants, many of whom are farm workers.

10:49And in those families, there’s no reference point for anything academic. So when they enter university and see it full of white, privileged kids whose parents are often professors at the University of California, it’s jarring. And because it’s the U.S., there’s this strong culture of comparison and individualism. So these students constantly feel like they’re being compared. They feel literally like they’re stupid. And they’ve told me this because I talk a lot with them and try to collaborate with them. They’ve told me directly, I feel inferior.

11:23I feel dumb. This happens a lot here, not only with undergrads but also at the PhD level. I personally went through a deep depression in my third year. I had to come to terms with the fact that I didn’t feel welcome. That was just the environment here. And even if I tried to feel more at ease to belong, I felt like in order to be accepted, I would have to change. I’d have to be white. I’d have to be American. And I wasn’t willing to make those changes. I can’t, I literally can’t look any different. Coming to terms with that was also a lesson. Science itself carries these values. And that was hard for me to realize, that even biology, which I love so much and has meant so much to me, carries within it values I no longer appreciate. Values of exclusion.

12:11Values that I hope will change someday, but they’re still there. That led me to keep thinking about English and science, and about what it really means to do fieldwork. What is fieldwork? And to top it all off, and I really want to name this here because I think it’s important to honor him, a colleague of ours, Gabriel Trujillo, was murdered while doing fieldwork. And the way the department responded, I don’t think it was adequate considering the impact that event had on all of us. Gabriel was indigenous. He was racialized.

12:40And for us, as Latinos in the department, it was incredibly painful to witness how the situation was handled. It’s been really hard. I do hope the universities will take stronger action, but it’s also been exhausting to keep pushing against the current. There’s always this balancing act. What can I do? What can I take on emotionally? How much can I endure without responding? So yeah, it’s been a heavy process. Absolutely.

13:07Especially the things you have already lead. But for someone to be murdered and for that event not to receive the attention or importance it deserves, that kind of neglect makes the discrimination feel even heavier. What you mentioned is so important because, yes, unfortunately, science has perpetuated this discrimination. That’s one of the reasons we do this podcast bilingually, so we can create channels of communications that remind us we don’t live on a different planet. We live on the same planet. But as humans, we have built these barriers, not only linguistic, but also geographic. Our idea is to bring people closer, to help everyone to see that we actually have more similarities than differences. We are more alike than we realize. We share a lot in common with people from different places, like Australia or the United States. A nationality is just a label. At the end of the day, we are all human.

14:07We are all the same species. Of course, we also have differences, and that’s beautiful. But sadly, science has built walls, and that’s why we want to expand this conversation, to help people realize that scientists are not from another world. They are people, too. They go through challenges, different ones than people in other professions, but it’s just as real. As human beings, we live through hard things like the ones you have experienced, for example. The absence of equality and inclusion.

14:37I was lucky. But for example, when I spent five months in Finland, I started to feel depressed. I didn’t feel comfortable where I was. I didn’t feel included. I felt what I was doing was more like a manual labor than real research. Thankfully, I had a family in Colombia. My mom even told me, come back. But then there is a social pressure. You will be a failure if you quit. You will fail if you say no. And then someone who always has been very important to me, my undergraduate supervisor, asked me, what are you doing over there? Come back. Who is going to live that experience? You are. No one else is going to live that for you.

15:18Later, I came to Australia and I always say this. I will repeat it again and again. I believe that 90%, even 99 % of the success of the PhD comes down. to your supervisors because they become your family. I was very lucky with my supervisors. But it’s not easy. You are in a place completely different from your own. You build new families, like you said, but these families also live.

15:46So I think it’s important to share with our audience that the people working in science, those working for biodiversity and knowledge, and also go through these challenges, especially not just in terms of language. Now that you mention it, let’s move on to the topic of scientific publishing standards and science communication, which most of the time is in English. How do you think this affects the ability of scientists from non -English speaking countries to share their knowledge? What kinds of barriers does it create? Well, to answer your question, I usually talk about four main ways that English impacts science. The first, as you mentioned before, is the disadvantage non -native English speakers face. when participating in science. A good example is my own experience, the difficulty I had writing in English. The second is the breakdown of communication between science and the 95 % of the world that doesn’t speak English. That’s a huge gap. And what you’re doing with this podcast, making it bilingual, is exactly the kind of thing we need. At least that way, science can reach new spaces and audiences.

16:55But the truth is… 95 % of people can’t read science in their own language. So, what happens when science isn’t published in English? It doesn’t reach the mainstream. Or worse, it’s undervalued. Third, when we’re learning science, we’re also learning English at the same time. And learning both is not the same as learning just one. It requires a completely different set of skills, and of course, that creates new and different barriers. And finally, There’s a lack of understanding that language is deeply tied to knowledge itself.

17:28Language is a cultural process that allows us to observe the world. It shapes how we perceive things. So, someone who speaks a different language than you doesn’t just say things differently. They see and understand the world differently. And that’s a beautiful thing. It shouldn’t be a problem. It should be something we embrace. That’s why it’s so important to protect languages. That’s why revitalizing endangered languages matters, because they hold knowledge that’s been built over thousands of years. They tell us about the creatures in a territory, about concepts of time, about space. That absolutely affects science. If we do all science in English, we create what some call monolingual epistemologies.

18:11What that means is that all knowledge is shaped by a single language. And when that happens, there are things we can no longer name in the same way. we can’t observe them the same way. We can’t feel them the same way. We lose pieces of the world, pieces of its observation. To me, that’s one of the biggest problems with English as the hegemonic language of science. And going back to your question, why is it so important to publish in other languages? Or what happens when we’re forced to publish only in English?

18:43Well, for one, we disconnect from society. But more importantly, we create very real disadvantages. For example, we recently released a preprint with an Australian researcher, Tatsuya Amano. One of our findings was that non -native English speakers publish fewer papers in English, but often more overall. That is, they publish a lot of science in their own language, and sometimes more than native English speakers. They’re producing a lot of knowledge, but it’s not being valued because it’s not in English. And that also means regional knowledge isn’t being valued. So, who matters? Who is science for? It ends up undermining the importance of the contextual, the regional, and the local. Of research that looks at the small stuff which actually isn’t small at all.

19:31What we call global is often just the US and Europe. But that’s not truly global. That’s just another region of the world. If you publish a paper about a neighborhood in California in English, It’s considered important. But if you write about a neighborhood in Bogota and publish it in Spanish, it won’t be seen the same way. But that neighborhood matters just as much. So the language we publish carries political weight. It tells us which worlds are worth researching and which aren’t. It tells us who science is meant to reach and who it’s not. To me, all of this is political. It speaks to inequality. Colonial inequality. Global inequality.

20:14And in a place like Colombia, it’s also a social inequality. Because the people who can afford to learn English are the ones who went to bilingual schools, who had the money to pay for English courses. So ultimately, it’s also a class issue. A social issue in countries where English isn’t the first language. And those inequalities? They just keep piling up one on top of the other. There’s something you said that’s really important about the need to preserve languages. And actually, Dr. Ana Maria Cheto, whom I mentioned to you earlier, also talk about this. She explained how science started, how scientific publications were originally written in the author’s native language, whether it was German, French, or English.

20:58And something else she mentioned was that when the model shifts with industrialization during the Industrial Revolution, science itself also becomes industrialized. Scientific communication through journal articles began to serve the purpose of updating others on the current state of science. But eventually, that shift too. Knowledge became a kind of currency, traded for prestige for impact factor. And like you said, when something is published in a native language, it doesn’t have a high impact factor, a number, then it’s considered worthless. So the value of knowledge gets lost in the process. And that makes us, as scientists, question, are we still sharing knowledge or are we just producing articles to maintain this economy of prestige? Your work advocates for science to be more accessible and equitable. You have already mentioned many things, but what changes would you like to see in the current model? And what motivates you to keep fighting for inclusion and diversity in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics? Well, I’d like to see a lot of changes. But maybe I’ll start by saying why I keep doing this work. First, I don’t think I have much of a choice. I’m a scientist and I also experience these inequalities. So as a scientist who lives these inequalities just by doing science, through my presence, through my opinions, I’m already exercising a different

22:29way of seeing the world. But also, I genuinely believe that the values that currently guide science, values rooted in colonialism, patriarchy, and capitalism won’t allow humanity to survive in the long term. Right now, science is very aligned with sectors I find troubling, like the military, for instance. Or here in the US, science is deeply tied to the pharmaceutical industry. And while I’m not saying that medical development isn’t important, here it’s largely about capital accumulation. There’s no real public healthcare system, for example. So the alignment of science with those kinds of power structures? I think they ultimately won’t help us move towards a future where everyone, as you said, can enjoy their own bodies, enjoy their territories, and imagine a future they belong to. And that’s the direction I want to go in, a place where a different future is possible. From my position as a scientist, that means I have to help change science. I have to. It has to become something else. It needs to think differently. It needs to align with different communities. It needs to imagine new futures for different people. Some scientists, for instance, have goals like deeply understanding a specific species, say a certain snake. And I think that’s beautiful. But my personal goal goes beyond that. Even though I love snakes, what drives me most is imagining a more diverse science, doing science with others. That’s where I’ll keep putting my energy. As for more concrete

24:00changes, especially about English and science, there are simple things that scientific journals still aren’t doing. For example, journals could allow or encourage the use of AI tools to translate papers more quickly. Many people are already doing this. I translate all my articles into Spanish myself. But those translations end up buried in the supplementary material. No one knows they exist. The journals don’t even include a note saying, this article is also available in Spanish. That’s the bare minimum, in my opinion.

24:32Reviewers could also require that if a study was conducted in a place like Colombia, at the very least it should be translated into the local language. That seems like a basic standard. Of course, there are challenges. I work in the Amazon now, and there are many indigenous languages spoken there. I haven’t yet been able to translate all my papers into every Amazonian language. That’s still a massive task. But even if we can’t do all of them, we can do some. That’s already something. And what you’re doing, bilingual podcasts, bilingual or trilingual conferences and seminars, that’s the kind of initiative we need more of.

25:09We need to expand the accepted languages of science. And we need to recognize what scientific education looks like in other languages. We need to make sure students are really understanding the material, not just memorizing foreign terms. We need to create opportunities for researchers to be valued, even if they publish in their native language. or in multiple languages. All of this can be done without a complete revolution. These are small shifts. We already have the tools. We just need the will. And many people are trying. But what’s missing is a broader willingness from those in power. Because what we realize as we advance in science is that, yes, there is such a thing as scientific power. And the people in those positions of power, they’re usually native English speakers. So it doesn’t even occur to them that this might be an issue. So we need to create more decision -making spaces for other people. We need to value different ways of doing science, of doing academia. For example, in this paper I’ll send you, we found that compared to a native English -speaking cisgender man, women publish less. Non -native English -speaking women publish even less. And women from countries with lower socioeconomic indices publish even less than that. That’s what we call intersectionality, how different forms of inequality compound depending on your background. And that shows up directly in scientific production. So we need to open up alternative ways of valuing science. Because

26:40women, for example, are the ones doing most of the service work in universities. They carry the emotional and caretaking labor. They’re also the ones publishing in non -English languages. They’re doing a lot of science communication. And none of that gets valued as science. But it is science. Because science should communicate. It should flow back and forth with society. And it should also care for the people who do science.

27:06So we need to start rethinking how we value scientists. That’s something we could start doing right now. And yet we haven’t. One concrete thing? Translate our scientific papers into the languages spoken where the research was done. We already have tools. AI now translates things much faster than before. So it’s possible. Could you share an anecdote that really marked you? And I know you must have many from your journey as a scientist.

27:33Something that inspired you to keep going despite the obstacles. Let’s see. I’ll start with something that’s been very important for me. Understanding that our families are extended. That your friends are also your family. And among my friends, many of whom are scientists too, they support me, they give me arguments, they help me out. Like, if I couldn’t figure out how to run our code, someone would be like, Come on, I’ll help you. So that chosen family becomes a source of support.

28:01We walk together. It’s like that phrase, make comrades, not competitors. For me, it’s about making friends along the way and looking out for each other. That’s been so important. Also, more and more, I’ve been drawn towards an interdisciplinary path, blending biology with the social sciences and rethinking academic work in more integrative ways. And in that process, my friends from other disciplines have been fundamental. Sometimes I feel a bit like an outsider in biology, like I’m too interested in things that my peers don’t focus on. But my friends in other fields remind me of the value of what I do. They cheer me on, they tell me, this is important work. So even if I sometimes feel like the black sheep of biology, my friends are there, encouraging me. Especially my fellow biologists from the global south, like my Colombian friends. They really value this work. They support me. Including you, thank you.

28:58That’s part of why I’m here today. They recognize that I’m talking about problems that resonate deeply with many of us, that affect us all. When I started speaking publicly about English and science, so many people reached out, not just with solidarity, but also with pain. They’d say things like, this happened to me too. I left science because of the language barrier. I’ve also had awful experiences. Or, thank you for saying it, I didn’t know how to name it, and I needed to hear it out loud. That’s been so moving. One beautiful outcome is that I’ve started getting more and more interested in linguistics.

29:34It shares a lot of similarities with evolutionary biology, which I think is super cool. Through that, I discovered some incredible thinkers. One I want to recommend is Yasnaya Aguilar, a brilliant linguist and thinker. She’s my And she lives in the territory we now call Mexico. She’s extraordinary. Please read her blog. She doesn’t write heavy academic articles. She writes for everyone. She writes beautifully. She publishes in newspapers, she has books, and she even has a podcast. Excellent. And to wrap up, what advice would you give to scientists, especially those facing cultural and linguistic barriers in their careers? I’d say two things. First, Never feel bad for using the tools that are out there. Use chat GPT. Use every translation tool available.

30:26For example, I used to struggle so much with writing emails in English. I didn’t know the cultural norms. In Colombian Spanish, we’re very formal. It’s all cordially. Through this communication, I inform you. But in English? I had no clue. Since chat GPT came along, I’ve been like, chat GPT, write me an email like this. Here’s what I need to say. Help. And I know some people approach tools like that with guilt. But no, get over the guilt. This is the only way we can level the playing field in a very unfair game. So use them. They’re your tools. Second, understand that what you’re going through is the result of structural injustice, not your personal failing.

31:10I did interviews with students at universities in Colombia and one thing that kept coming up And that really hurt was hearing them call themselves stupid. They’d say things like, I can’t do it. I’m dumb. I’m too slow. And it was heartbreaking. These are students who’ve gone through so much, who’ve survived so much. They’re brave, smart, and valuable like anyone else in the world. And all of that pain came from not being able to understand English. They’d say, I can’t read.

31:42Or, I’m dumb because I take too long. And I just wanted to scream, please don’t talk to yourselves that way. Treat yourselves with kindness. We need to understand that these are structural inequalities that affect all of us, not a reflection of our worth. These are violent systems of power. So my message is, never again call yourself slow or stupid. Many of us have been there too. We’re walking this path with you. And we’re here, together, to support each other as we navigate this life.

32:14Yes, you’re right. You’re not alone. There are many of us who have walked this path before and we are still walking it. And for a lot of people, it is not easy. It is not easy to leave home, to go to a place where your family isn’t, where your language isn’t spoken. Sometimes you just want to talk to a friend, not in English, but in your language. That’s why it is so important to have a community, to seek out connection, to never ever be ashamed of where you come from.

32:42On the contrary, you should feel privileged. I said that with all my heart. Be proud of where you come from. Be proud of your experiences. And never compare yourself. That’s so important. Never compare. Valeria, thank you so much for sharing all these amazing stories with us. Your insights, your personal experiences, your knowledge. This episode was inspired by the courage to question the status quo and to open new paths towards a science that is more inclusive, diverse, and human. Valeria’s journey reminds us that science is not only about generating knowledge. It is about recognizing the voices, languages, and realities that have historically been excluded.

33:24She invites us to imagine and build a future where doing science doesn’t depend on the language you speak or the place you come from, but on your passion for understanding and caring for the world we inhabit. This episode is dedicated to Gabriel Trujillo. And to all scientists who have lost their lives doing science, we want our audience to remember that not all scientists work in laboratories. Many venture in the field, crossing jungles, climbing mountains, or exploring remote ecosystems, sometimes risking their lives to collect data, protect a species, or simply to better understand our environment, our world.

33:59Being a scientist goes far behind the stereotype. And here we honor that deep admiration and respect. We hope this conversation has led you with a new perspective. I encourage you to keep asking questions, building community, and defending equity in every corner of knowledge. Because change begins with those who dare to ask, what if science could be different? Science Behind the Glass, La Ciencia Detrás del Cristal, is an independent produced and edited podcast hosted by Linda Hernandez and Danides Guerra. With the invaluable support of our technical director, Rafael Giordano, and original music by our colleague and friend, Bernardo Aguirre. Follow us on Instagram, X, Facebook, TikTok, and LinkedIn. And visit our website for more studies, resources, and updates. Don’t forget to subscribe and share this podcast with your friends, colleagues, and community to amplify these essential conversations.

34:54If you enjoyed this episode, we invite you to support us with a contribution via PayPal. Just click the support us button and our website. Your support is vital for this project to keep growing. Thank you for listening. Keep questioning, sharing, and celebrating science made from every corner of the world. Until next time.