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Transcript

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0:01Who are the characters behind science? This is Science Behind the Glass, Illuminating the Human Side. In this podcast, we unveil the human side of laboratories and science. Scientists share personal experiences and will discuss their meanings from different perspectives and fields of research. Welcome back to Science Behind the Glass, Illuminating the Human Side. In this episode, we delve into the inspiring journey of Lucy Graham. a passionate advocate for environmental sustainability and conservation. From her early days with organizations like the Wilderness Society to her pivotal role as the current director of CAPNIC, the Cairns and Far North Environment Century, that is a non -governmental environmental organization.

0:47Lucy has dedicated herself to enhancing the capacity of local groups and community members to act for conservation. Lucy, thank you for being here and accepting this invitation. Thanks so much for having me. I’m really excited. To start, Lucy, what leads you to work in an NGO and why is it important for you and for people? Yeah, I probably came into the non -government environmental advocacy world in a different way to a lot of people and there’s lots of different pathways in, but I actually worked… Originally as an outdoor educator, taking kids out into the environment and helping them fall in love with nature and the world around us. But over time I saw a lot of impacts to nature, a lot of changes, and I really just felt that I was helping kids to fall in love with something that wasn’t guaranteed to be a part of their future. And that was really hard to sit with. So, you know, I went to university and I accidentally became an activist. And, you know, if you start, I guess, looking around and taking action for the environment and starting to have a say about things that you can see happening around you that you don’t agree with, you might just find yourself working for a non -government organisation one day because, you know, that’s really what… small environmental and, yeah,

2:18big environmental NGOs do. Ah, fantastic. Can you explain a little bit what CAFNIC does in the Far North Queensland, Australia? Yeah, so the Cairns and Far North Environment Centre, affectionately known as CAFNIC, is a peak regional organisation. So I always say, you know, we’re trying to be something to most people most of the time. As an organisation, we are an environment centre. Anyone in our region, which I always like to remind people is twice the size of Victoria.

2:51So although it’s a regional community, it’s a really big area. Anyone who sees something happening to the environment that they don’t agree with, they can come and talk to us and we will help them advocate for that to change. But we also run really important campaigns on really big issues like limiting global warming to 1.5 degrees, trying to stop the big threats to our biodiversity, like land clearing, trying to protect our reef and look after its water quality. We also do a lot of justice campaigns where the intersection of people and environment sit. We also have about 42 member groups from across the region, which are really important groups that are working on the ground to restore the environment, doing tree planning, cultural heritage care and natural heritage care. And we help them to meet their own goals as well oh that sounds really exciting yeah we do a lot yes and what is the importance of education to communicate environmental needs and requirements yeah i think understanding what’s around you is a really important part of knowing why you need to look after it and and how to look after it and so education is a really important part of communicating the environment because, you know, if we don’t understand what’s happening when we look around, we don’t know that it needs

4:21help. And education doesn’t just mean in schools or in universities. It also means learning from First Nations people in the places that we live in. It means talking to the people around us. I really like the idea of local knowledge. First Nations knowledge and scientific knowledge are all really valuable parts of how we learn from each other because sometimes it’ll be First Nations people who can teach the most about what’s happening in the environment and what you need to know.

4:50Sometimes it’ll be your fisherman who’s been there for multiple generations or your farmers. All of those different parts of knowledge are important. But without really taking the time to understand what… the environment should be doing or should look like. We don’t know if it has a problem. And so I think the biggest example for me was when I was a kid, I used to look at, you know, all of these dairy farms and be like, wow, look at all these beautiful fields.

5:20It’s so amazing. And then after I learned a bit more, I was like, oh my God, so much cleared land and not vegetated stream banks and invasive species everywhere and impacts the soil. And so. And obviously there’s lots of good things that can come from farming, but we also have to look at how we’re doing it. Perfect. How do you see or how can people can be more empowered to demand their rights to a healthy environment?

5:48Yeah, I think this is a really interesting question. And I think it’s about knowing that you can. There are a lot of people who make a lot of money from… not caring about the environment, large fossil fuel companies, corporations, multinational companies who are extracting from the environment in different ways and making huge profits off it. And one of the ways they succeed in doing that is by telling people that we’re powerless, that we can’t make a difference, that we’re just one person. Or by tricking us into thinking we’re the problem and saying, oh, you just need to use less water or use less electricity or ride your bike. And all of those things are important.

6:31But actually, it’s, you know, like a very small amount of people in the world who are driving the biggest environmental harm. And so I think the first step in people knowing that they can demand a healthy environment is knowing that you can and knowing that there’s lots of people around you who want to. and knowing that you can make a difference and that it can be really enjoyable because I always say it’s really hard to do something about environmental harm, but it’s a lot harder to do nothing about it because then you have to sit there and feel powerless.

7:08And so, you know, I think the way that you can do that is by volunteering at organisations like the Cairns and Parnoff Environment Centre or our land care groups where you can go and plant trees. learn about the environment that’s around you, joining in citizen science projects, you know, and then just asking questions. You know, the first campaign I ever got involved in was when a multi, like a large integrated casino resort development was proposed for a place at Yorkies Knob. And then I opened the newspaper and I was reading it and I turned to my mum and I was like, who’s going to do something about this? And she just looked at me and she was like, well, I’ve done my time. Now it’s your turn.

7:51And, you know, it was a really good, it was a good thing. If you see something like that and you ask that question, oh my God, who’s going to do something about this? Often the answer could be you. You just have to like find that organization or that group of people who are going to do it with you. Yes. And then, so that’s important to mention that the NGOs that support, for example, people that are interested or empower these people that want to participate in activities or try to fight for it. Right. So having a healthy environment, for example. Yeah. So you basically, you know, we have a volunteering page on our website and you can just sort of like if you look at what we’re doing and you feel excited about, you can sign up or you could just come to our center in Cairns and say, hey, this is something I’m really worried about. Can you help me figure out how to do something about it? And we have training programs where we teach people about, you know, how does advocacy work and help people. develop the skills and confidence to go and meet with your members of parliament or join a rally or you know and I think there’s also a really important thing for everyone to remember that change making looks different and the news presents a lot of people going to protests and you know doing big brave things speaking in front of lots of people but sometimes there’s lots of ways that you are helping behind the scenes. in a way that might be more acceptable to an introvert or someone who gets a bit scared in large groups. And so that can be writing submissions on legislation or writing letters to the editor

9:23or, you know, helping organise events. We have lots of events where we invite public discussion on big issues and there’s a lot of work that goes into that that’s behind the scenes. you know, protecting the environment can look like a lot of different things. And that’s why, yeah, CAFNEC is so amazing because it embraces everyone in the moment that you’re at and helps you to, you know, I guess, act on what your heart’s telling you. Perfect. That sounds exciting. I really enjoy it. And how NGOs can help to accomplish sustainable development goals and environmental, regional, national and global commitments? Yeah, I think, This is one of the things that we do so well for the world that is really not well understood because what a lot of countries will do is sign up to commitments at an international level. And international commitments are really important because it is a place where globally we kind of compete to look at who’s doing the best for the environment. But we also get pushed by other countries who feel the impacts of our decisions more than we do. And often developing countries will feel the impacts of climate change sooner than we will in developed countries in different ways. And so what we see is, you know, in these international spaces, we see things like… the sustainable development goals or,

10:54you know, like Australia signed up to stop deforestation, you know, or to put 30 % of our landmass into protected areas by 2030. These really big goals. But without organisations like environmental NGOs, countries just sign up to those goals and then don’t do anything about it because in the international space, there really isn’t anyone to hold them accountable to those commitments.

11:20And so, you know, as far as like non -government organisations, particularly environmental ones, you know, we really are the people who are watching our governments at an international, national, state and local level and saying either you’ve committed to this and we want to see how you’re going to do it and we want to see the plan for it and you’re going to have to do it or we haven’t seen you commit to these things. There’s major environmental issues and you need to do something about it. And so, you know, I think one of the naiveties you have as a young person is you look at our leaders in government and you think, okay, these are the people who are here to do the morally right thing. And the reality is that most politicians don’t do the morally right thing, you know, and the morally right thing is a very subjective idea as well, you know, that changes from person to person. And so it’s our job. to ensure that at all levels of government, they are hearing a clear demand from across our society that, you know, the environment has to be protected and these global national and state commitments are not left to the wayside. And so we’re kind of like a bit of a watchdog in some ways, you know. You can’t just sign up to things and then do nothing. Yeah, so does your advocate to make their commitments the commitments become a reality exactly and quite often we have the experts who

12:54tell people how to do that because you know um to be a politician you know they’re the people who who sign us up to these commitments you don’t have to have any expertise in those matters to be a politician and so often uh yeah these these people in positions of power really rely on us to understand You know, what are the challenges of delivering these goals? And as a regional conservation group, we have really important insights to that because you can make a commitment in an international meeting somewhere, but what does that mean, you know, on the Atherton Tablelands or in Weipa or in Cape York? And what are the intersecting issues with other… human issues like poverty and oppression and you know all of the things that make it hard for people to look after the environment so yes it’s um it’s a really interesting and very like in some ways quite complicated but when it comes down to it is like if we don’t have a large group of everyday people helping the governments who make these commitments understand that they’re important and how to do them it won’t happen and and quite often it’s lots and lots of people saying that the same thing in a really loud voice that even gets those commitments, you know, governments don’t sign up to end land clearing unless a lot of people make a lot of noise about it because you can make a lot of money off clearing land.

14:22Yes, exactly. Well, in an immediate response, right? But also it’s important to highlight that the NGOs or especially cabinet work with scientists trying to… communicate what is what is happening for example what is the impact in ecosystem and trying to translate or works as a channel to communicate what is happening within in in a particular ecosystem where it’s affected or monitoring changes or mitigating impacts and then tell also the politicians or the government hey they found this and then communicate openly to what could be the possible solution. Yeah, it’s interesting.

15:10You know, I didn’t go to university until I was 24 because, yeah, I did TAFE and I really enjoyed being an outdoor educator. And I did a Bachelor of Sustainability majoring in social science and I got the privilege of studying in economics, in law, in ecology, in human rights and social sciences. And a lot of people, because I did quite well at uni and a lot of people said, oh, you know, you’re going to do postgraduate research.

15:36And I remember thinking at the time, wow, there is so much incredible research that exists in the world that people don’t know about, understand and hasn’t been implemented. And the science has been unequivocally highlighting the issues of biodiversity loss and climate change and regional environmental problems and water issues. problems with mining for an incredibly long time. But yeah, there’s not as many people working to communicate that science and help people understand it. And as someone who, you know, for many years wasn’t a scientist, was an outdoor educator, I did find science hard to understand as an everyday person.

16:18And so after I did my undergraduate, I thought, no, I really want to be a part of helping this science reach the community to be understood and to be used to communicate what’s going on in the world that’s what NGOs do yes it’s like a dead bridge right exactly the bridge that brings science and community as an approach to the people and for example government and we couldn’t do it without amazing scientists doing that work yeah but that’s that’s important because I didn’t think that I don’t know if many people knows that the connection with scientists and NGOs and also that you advocate for people and for the air and talking directly with the government to try to find solutions or try to mitigate the impact. Yeah, and I think that’s, you know, in advocacy and activism, it’s not a whole heap of people who are just yelling because they’re angry. It’s people who have understood the science and the traditional knowledge and the local knowledge and really understand that there is an urgent need to change things. But without that information and that sort of intellectual property that those different knowledge holders share with us, we don’t have any, we won’t be taken seriously by decision makers. You have to strike this balance

17:51of being powerful and loud and a strong community who people have to sit up and pay attention to and also to be smart and informed and have the answers once they start listening. And that has to be done with every part of our community from science to the everyday person who’s signed a petition. Now that we mentioned the scientists, do you think that there’s an interest from the industry and private sectors helping financially and supporting NGOs in different ways? It’s an interesting question. The answer is yes, there is. And I think there’s a really positive side to that. And there’s also a really dark side to it as well. Because there are… incredibly progressive businesses and industries who are supporting the work of environmental organisations and everyday people. And then there’s also a lot of industries who are trying to make themselves look like they’re not creating major environmental harm. And that has been a tactic of organisations for a long time is saying, don’t look over there where it looks a bit nasty. Look over here where we’ve got a grants program. for you know like these environmental causes and so it’s really interesting that there’s private sector interest in industry interest in supporting non -government organizations but yeah we like at CAFNEC we have

19:21an ethical fundraising policy which which drives us to really consider who we’re taking money from and why because we are a charity and we do take gifts but we’re not going to take them from everyone and we always have to examine the interests of people as to why they might want to give. I think the really interesting part of this as well and I’ll just sort of name it is like the growing development of the sort of carbon markets and biodiversity markets where we’re sort of monetizing reducing carbon or increasing biodiversity. which is, you know, like neoliberal version of capitalism where we’re like we’re going to put profit and growth of our economy over most things and that economy and monetary worth defines the worth of something is kind of the system that’s driving a lot of environmental harm. And so using that system to value the environment can have perverse effects. But when that system is the… you know, the main system we’re working with, we also have to, you know, kind of use that system to demonstrate the value of the environment because it does so that we’re stuck in this really interesting time where we’re starting to put monetary value to the environment because we need to demonstrate in our economic system why it’s important. But it is also the economic system that is driving a lot of environmental harm because it is like profit over people, profit over the environment. So, I mean, I don’t think that’s

20:52really the question you asked, but I think it is a really important part to acknowledge in the complicated sort of financial setting that we’re in. And what industry do you think that maybe have an interest or have approach from your experience, have approach to you or to a company or organization or that you are aware of other NGOs that maybe work hand by hand with other industries that try to do? Like I only improve when I do the right thing. I mean, like to be totally honest with you, the majority of CAFNIC’s funding comes from small donations from everyday people. It’s really interesting. Like the power of our work is by people’s voluntary time and the power of our work is by small donations that many people make. I think as far as like what are the industries that are most aligned with our sector is a complicated one. to answer because it’s more business than industry I would say that like as far as the organizations that support regional conservation groups is it’s local businesses who are like you know we really support this I’d say the main industry that supports us is tourism because tourism so heavily relies on a functional environment you know but it’s usually non -financial support that those that industry will will provide to our sector around like how we team up to advocate. I think that

22:25NGOs are very cautious about taking money from industry because the industries that offer the most money are fossil fuel industries and they’re the most complicated. They’re the ones you don’t want to be taking it from, gas companies, oil companies. And so, you know, like and even it’s interesting you look at like One of the biggest grant makers in Queensland is the Gambling Benefit Fund, which is just a whole heap of money that gambling companies have to pay to the community because of the cost that they imply on the social health of our community. When you talk about it at an industry level, it’s not such a big thing. But if you talk about at a business level where… There’s small to medium enterprise businesses who are people who have set up businesses to serve their community because they really care about their community. They’re the ones who like give, you know, a couple of thousand dollar donations or things like that where they’re like, you know, I might be just a coffee shop or, you know, a local accountancy or, you know, it could be, you know, a law firm. Who cares about what happens in the environment around them? And what do you think about some social political movements that promote anti -scientific and anti -environmental messages? Or do you face this challenge from your work? I think it’s not simple because in my core, and I don’t think everyone believes this, but I think that the most important thing

23:59that we can ever have as a society is a society that can come together despite difference and that a lot of skepticism, whether it’s with science or other things, doesn’t come from a place of being a bad person or being someone who hates science. Often it comes from misunderstanding or fear or the weaponization of corporate interests.

24:27taken people’s fear and turned it into something like skepticism or or you know misinformation and so you know when you ask the question how do you face those movements i mean i think sometimes it is we have to campaign against it you know like um one of the ways that that can look is having misinformation watches so that happens in social environment movements where we have like fact checkers because there are a lot of corporate interests that will put out misinformation slow down or distract people from the solutions that are really needed but I think The most important thing that we can do is not divide ourselves because if you look at social and environmental movements in history, the most effective way to stop them is to divide them. And so what we see at the moment is huge global corporate interests working very hard to polarise everyday people.

25:28and say that you’re alone or you’re different because that’s the easiest way to stop us from creating a beautiful world that we want to live in. And so I always say to people, if you see someone who is different to you or who has different views or, yeah, might not be sharing scientific or traditional knowledge well, try not to be angry at them and don’t try and convince them of your ideas. You need to come from a place of understanding. to ask curious questions, understand what that person’s experience is and what’s going on for them. Obviously, if they’re being racist, discriminatory and horrible, misogynistic people, we don’t need to do that. I’m not saying go out there and expose yourself to harm because sometimes it is super hard. But I think if you’re talking to your friends or your family or people in your workplace and they’re saying things that you really don’t agree with or you don’t think is scientific, the worst thing that you can do is argue with them because, A, the science shows that that only deepens people’s ideas and differences, but it also polarises our communities. So there’s actually really good research, you know, all about how this happens. And so as a scientist, if you’re getting angry because people aren’t listening to the science, you should go and read the science on how to deal with that, which says have an open heart, have an open mind. and be curious about that person, their experience and

26:59find a way to connect with them on mutual value because that’s what makes a better world is people trying to connect with each other through kindness. To listen instead of like answering. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Or having a fact. You know, often people come to Castneck and they’re like, can you please tell me all the facts that I need to know to convince someone that this is the right thing to know? And, you know, often I’ll say no, but. You can come into our community, connect with a bunch of people and learn how to connect with lots of different parts of the community and create a brighter world together, which I think is a more fun way of doing it as well and less arguey. And what has been, I guess, that you have many challenges, what has been one of the biggest challenges that you face and how you overcome it or how you deal with that?

27:52I think the biggest challenge is, to keep facing the challenges, you know. My mum said to me, I love my mum, she’s a big mentor for me, and she said to me once when I was young, leadership isn’t stepping up, it’s standing still while everyone else runs away. And I think she’s pretty spot on with that because, you know, like…

28:18When you choose to do something like, you know, environmental advocacy, it’s your job to agitate people, like, right? It’s your job to agitate everyday people into thinking differently. It’s your job to agitate, you know, governments into doing things differently. And so, like I always say, if everyone’s a little bit happy and a little bit pissed off with me at the same time, then we’re probably doing a good job. But it does take a toll. And turning up every day to sit with and explore and try and make change on some of the biggest environmental harm and the really big problems in the world, it’s tough emotionally and mentally. And I’m really pleased to see that in our movements and in our society there’s a lot more mental health support and wellbeing support for people who are changemakers, you know, because I think… We have to nurture our hearts as we face these big problems. So I’d say the biggest challenge is continuing to do the work when it can feel really difficult. And the way I’ve done that is by focusing on that connection with other people who are choosing to turn up and a really good therapist. And finally.

29:41We want to hear about an adventure that you had with your best friend, Mathilde Gordon, in 2018, when both of you kayaked about 2,000 kilometers from Genoa, Alaska, to Vancouver Island, Canada. Three months kayaking expedition, and in which both raised awareness of marine plastic pollution and promote women in adventure. Can you share more about this exciting adventure with us? Yeah.

30:11Why did you decide to do that? So funny, you know, so many people ask why. My brain is always like, why not? You know, what a great time. But really the answer is like when I was 19, I traveled to Canada and I caught a ferry across Vancouver Island and I was kayak guiding back home in Australia at the time and I saw all these islands and I was like. wow this looks like an incredible place to kayak and when I got home I did some research and I was like oh well people have kayaked that whole you know like island series I guess I could do that one day um and you know I think I think that’s the the beauty of what my parents um instilled in me from a young age is is look at the world and and just say yeah I can do that you know even even if you haven’t really done anything like it before but you know it’s also that was That was a really big thing to take on. So, you know, even though I first thought of it when I was 19, it was many years later that I looked at a friend I had made and thought, hmm, she’d probably be up for that. And when I asked her, she was like, you know, she’s never kayaked more than a day in her life. She’s only done day trips before. And I’m like, do you want to do this trip with me? And she said, do you think I can do it? I was like, yeah, if we train and do the planning. And she was like, will there be heaps of… cool animals and I was like oh yeah man there’s so much cool stuff there and um and she’s like okay let’s do it uh and it was simple as

31:42that uh and I always say I don’t know who was more crazy me who had more idea of what we were eating for or you who had no idea and still said yes but you’re getting into yeah exactly but yeah so it was 2042 kilometers and 89 days paddling on the ocean in between these incredible islands that exist on the west coast of Alaska and Canada And, yeah, we, you know, we recognise that you have a place of privilege if you can take three months off in your life to go and do a kayaking trip. And so we wanted to make sure that we also use that to communicate. People love a good adventure, love a good story, and we knew that we could use it to have an impact. And, yeah, so we raised $20,000 for ocean conservation organisations.

32:29And we did it without using single -use plastic. And that was a really interesting, you know, challenge because all of the food you take with you on those trips is usually cryovaccine. Yeah, so, yeah, we wrapped it up in newspaper. We made a film about it in the end. We just took a GoPro with us and we were just hand sort of held filming each other. some amazing um artists put it into a film that toured with the ocean film festival and a number of other festivals and and it’s on youtube now you can watch it it’s yes i’m going to share the link oh great yeah and go to our friends those in that way they had the chance yeah but i think you know my highlight was just um you know in in everyday life you have so many things you have to do you know get up have breakfast do this do that go on do a podcast recording, go and do some, you know, go to work, whatever it is. Rushing, rushing.

33:21Rushing, rushing. And, you know, like sure it’s challenging. You have to paddle in the rain and the wind and sleep in a tent. But all you actually have to do is get from A to B every day. That’s it. It’s so simple. It’s so beautiful. And it’s incredibly peaceful. And you don’t have any phone reception. So, you know, no one. in contact with you. You’re not distracted by all of the things that society has done to sort of over -stimulate us. It’s incredibly relaxing, even if it is hard physical work. Yeah, that’s amazing. You’re so brave. Yeah. But as you said the other day, we were having the conversation, we are brave in different ways, right? Yeah. I think, you know, there’s like I always, there’s a couple of things like the absence of fear is not bravery. Bravery is when you’re really scared of something. And so being brave looks really different for lots of different people, you know, depending on your personal experience of life. For example, for me, getting up and talking in front of an audience of people now is incredibly easy. I don’t even think about it. But for another person, that could be the most terrifying thing that they’ve done. Am I brave? No, because I’m not scared of that thing. But is the person who’s really scared of it standing up and doing it brave?

34:50Yes. And so I’m not saying I wasn’t scared at different parts of that trip. And I definitely was like, you know, when we were launching, I was like, wow, the audacity of myself to think that I can do this. But, you know, I think being brave is what gives life meaning. You know, if you’re not. If you’re not brave, then you never got to learn anything new or grow as a person.

35:16Bravery is the essential ingredient to being, you know, having new experiences, growing as a person and expanding that world you have. Yeah, that’s true. It’s like the spice of life. It is. It is. Lizzie, thank you very much for sharing all your knowledge, for explaining simple words, for accepting the invitation. There’s a message that you… you’d like to share with the audience from Latin America or different parts of the world? One day I hope I could do this whole interview in Spanish as well. But I think just, you know, and also, yeah, I travelled in Latin America for a year and it’s one of the most incredible and most beautiful environments in the world.

36:02There’s still pieces of my heart there. But I think the thing I would say is that… The most important thing that everyone can do is find a way that looking after the environment can work for you in your everyday life because we don’t need everyone to be doing the biggest things for the environment. We need everyone finding a way to express their love and care for the environment in a way that is possible for them in their life in that moment because we all have different experiences, but we can all find a way. yeah and to love nature because it is inherently what we depend on for life thank you thank you the role of this organization is not limited to a particular branch of bad instead it serves as a link between different communities problems or environmental issues that are ignored or neglected by governmental institutions so it is crucial to keep this independent work as a counterweight to companies or governmental projects that can potentially impact the community These organizations also play a part in education. We talk about this part of society that thinks that science is a way of controlling their life or this kind of vision that portrays scientific endeavors as something deceitful. Many NGOs make an effort to communicate the urgency of their fights and how science -based decisions are more beneficial in the long run for most citizens. That’s right, NGOs. play a crucial role in advocating for various

37:35causes. But these organizations also have to overcome many challenges. Getting funded is one of the most common challenges because they heavily depend on donations, grants, and funding from governments or private entities. This dependence can lead to financial instability and can sometimes influence the NGO’s agenda. In this case, Lucy was clear that the NGOs need to be quite critical about who is giving Donations and for what purpose?

38:03That’s right. A delicate matter about NGOs is the control mechanisms that may vary from country to country. This kind of organization should function like a company, meaning that the structure is needed to maintain precise counts and accountability to donors and the general public. In some cases, when these conditions are not met, it can be promising to corruption scenarios. While NGOs advocate for accountability from others, they can sometimes fall short in this area. Lack of transparency in their operations and finances can undermine their credibility and effectiveness.

38:37Despite facing many challenges, NGOs play a crucial role in empowering communities to advocate for their rights. Without NGOs, communities might struggle to demand a pollution -free environment, for example, protect endangered animals, and address other critical issues. These organizations are vital because they act as independent intermediaries, bridging the gap between industries, government, and communities, ensuring that voices are heard and actions are taken. I think it is quite vital that NGOs are better understood and known by everyone because sometimes they are the last resource for communities in need. Thank you for joining us today in this episode. This episode was inspired by the article Environmental Non -Governmental Organizations and Global Environmental Discourse. We have included references to this material and our guest information in the episode description. Remember that this podcast is self -funded and self -edited by its hosts. You can support us by sharing and subscribing, listening to our podcast on YouTube, Spotify, and our official website. Follow us on social media on X, Facebook, and Instagram. Original music by our colleague and friend, Bernardo Aguila, and the technical support from our promotions manager and friend, Rafael Jordan.