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Transcript

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0:01Who are the characters behind science? This is Science Behind the Glass, Illuminating the Human Side. In this podcast, we unveil the human side of laboratories and science. Scientists share personal experiences and will discuss their meanings from different perspectives and fields of research. This is an English version of the original interview. It may be summarized or reinterpreted. Welcome to Science Behind the Glass, Illuminating the Human Side. This time, we go into the fields of the Yucatan Peninsula, Mexico, to explore agroecological projects and look at the education and research from an intercultural perspective.

0:42Today, we welcome Dr. Ari De Leon, who from her position as researcher at the Intercultural Majority University of Quintana Roo, will tell us about how applied research can be carried out and in hand with traditional communities. Dr. Ari is an environmental engineer from the Polytechnic University of Chiapas. She has a PhD in biotechnology and bioengineering from the Zimbabwe staff. She has been involved in several microbial ecology projects, specializing in soils and street environments.

1:12She is the author of several scientific articles and has worked on the use of microbial ecology as an indicator of the conservation status of ecosystems. Arif, thanks for joining us today for this episode. To begin with, could you tell us… How did you come to work in an intercultural university? And what are the particularities compared to other universities or research centers?

1:38Hi, thank you for the invitation. I am at the Intercultural Mayan University of Quintana Roo as a part of the program called Researchers for Mexico. So I applied to the call and fortunately I was selected. It was very tricky. I had known the university a year before. I got to know the facilities. how they work and the projects that they were carrying out. What is different is precisely that intercultural universities arise to bring higher education to indigenous peoples or populations. If these institutions were not there here, it would be more difficult for these communities to study because of their location.

2:16In terms of the careers that they offer, they have more to do with the community. For example, there are careers such as communitary health or alternative tourism. That’s so that the aspiration of young people is no longer to leave their community. In the case of Yucatan Peninsula, the aspiration was to leave and go to the tourist area, to Cancun, for example, or a resort. So this part of the migration of young people led to the loss of the labor force for rural communities. So these universities emerged in the early 2000s in different parts of Mexico, including the Yucatan Peninsula, to provide a solution. to the problem of loss of the labor force from young people. That sounds very important. Could you explain a little bit why it is essential for traditional communities, particularly in the Yucatan Peninsula, to have universities using this approach? I mentioned the issues with migration. Just because there is no university nearby, it is more difficult for young people to finish a university degree or a technical career. Young people from there would have to go to larger cities or big cities like Merida or Cancun, and therefore further away from their families and also paying more expensive rents, transportation, and all that eating plus. From a personal point of view, my life would have been entirely different if this option had existed for us. It gives them the opportunity not only to be with their family, but also to reduce costs and the opportunity

3:48to study. to encourage them to study and continue with the academic or social part and work in the same place where they grew up. The idea is also professionalizing knowledge because a lot of knowledge already exists or it has been there transmitted from generation to generation. But it needs to be systematized or professionalized. On the other hand, it is also vital that young people appropriate what they do, that they feel proud of the knowledge that they have. of this ancestral legacy of care, this knowledge and an application, and how to apply it. Of course.

4:23They have been doing technical work for a long time in their communities. However, it is essential for an educational institution to ensure that these types of skills are not lost among the people who live there. Of course. Also, from the farmer’s point of view, your word is not worth the same. If unfortunately you don’t have a document that supports a degree. So even if you are the best fee keeper in the world, if you never went to the university or you are not a technician, it is nothing. It doesn’t mean nothing. And your work is devaluated. How the work is evaluated and how it is remunerated is also important in that sense. And I could say that the university responds to several of these problems or at least tackle these issues. So could you tell us a little bit about what agroecology is and why do you see it is important? Agroecology is a different approach to the exploitation of natural resources. It has nothing to do with monoculture or extensive crops. I say that the Mayans knew it. Oh, they knew much more than we do. In the Yucatan Peninsula, there is, for example, the Mayan Milpa, which consists of planting in symbiosis of different crops such as corn, squash, bean, and crops, and these ones are rotated.

5:43Many Mayan communities continue to do these activities. This knowledge allows the people to conserve the soil’s fertility. Another important thing is that in the Yucatan Peninsula, there is quite poor soil, or it’s like a little. layer of soil. So if you dig anywhere on the peninsula, there is only a few centimeters before you reach the rock. So agroecology is the modern name for something ancient. So it is usually the knowledge that the ancestors had and has to these days. My approach to the communities continues to be very humble because I consider that I have much to learn from them than they have to learn from me. The Mayan Milpa has A whole series of observations of the environment related to the stars, the weather, and what is called the cabanuelas, when the ants or larvae come out. So that indicates that it’s going to rain soon. This is very ancient knowledge that has been mixed with technology and is getting understood a little bit more.

6:44It is important to combine these traditional and scientific parts. Also, in Yucatan, burning is mainly done to replenish the soil with carbon. The meal pie is not mechanized or is hardly mechanized. And it’s all artesian work that helps to replenish the nutrients in the soil. That’s very interesting. So moving forward, tell us about your projects at the Intercultural University. How do you see your knowledge of microbial systems as applications in the activities and missions of the traditional communities? You’re aware that microorganisms exist everywhere. What excites me now is sharing the curiosity I have or the significance I see in understanding phenomena like the microbiome of bees. The Yucatan Peninsula is renowned for its beekeeping and melipony culture. The management of native stingless bees. These bees not only produce honey, but they are actually unknown.

7:40There’s different biological aspects of these bees are unknown. Many in Mexico are unaware that the stingless bees are honey producers too. Honey is created as a nectar passes through the bee’s digestive system and is then deposited back into the hive. Consider honey as a reflection of the microbiome of a specific part of the bee’s digestive system. Thus, I found a tree link to explore its properties and describe each type of honey. The variation in honey depends on what bees pollinate or select. My project, and the reason I am at the university, revolves around this inquiry. It also involves studying how microbial or bacterial communities in the soil change, whether in forest, soil, milpa, or the vegetation that sustains these bees. And how does this microbiome change with different agricultural practices?

8:30The Mayan population has endured, but it faces ongoing challenges due to the relentless expansion of technified monoculture and extensive crops. Some of the tools that have helped to understand the importance of The different techniques that they use or they disknowledge is the molecular level evidence. Although may not always be necessary, it is crucial to demonstrate economically the importance and the relevance of the conserving bee habitats and pollinators. This conservation effort benefits not only the inhabitants of the peninsula, but all Mexicans and indeed all inhabitants of the world. The significant issue lies in our failure to grasp the ecosystem as a whole. Instead, we focus on isolated components, leading to monocultures that lack biodiversity and understanding of soil property, changes in interactions with pollinators, and impacts on natural predators. Furthermore, the social aspect adds complexity, particularly regarding land ownership. Many hold the belief that it is my land and I’ll do as I please, without considering the broader community’s interest.

9:36It is essential to shift this perspective towards recognizing that while the land may be individual property, it is everyone’s best interest, and to avoid devastation and monoculture practices. Yes, precisely. There are very different visions of the territory, and in this case, new works amplified was not traditionally the case for Mayan culture or communities. The land is communal property for them and one day they are doing their cornfield or crop but tomorrow they will do it at a neighbor’s land because the first place needs to be born or harvest, whatever is the case. And the neighbor will do the same.

10:14These are very different missions of conceiving a concept as important as territory. It is very important that you are working to incorporate this type of mission and academia. Yes, it is also something that I recognize and applaud from the Intercultural Mayan University of Quintana Roo, because it is something that in my scientific career I had not seen. That’s right. So how have you applied or proposed this research to these activities that you carry out with the community?

10:43Well, I am also relatively new. in this university. Actually, I started in January of this year. I have been using the links that they had already been created in the past. I have been recognizing their territory and the people of the community involved in the project. To my surprise, there are many producers and many people interested. There’s everything. There’s small producers, medium -sized producers, large producers, and also large exporters. There is a lot of interest, but there is also a lot of… skepticism from the population with good reason. They need more certainty that this resource or what we discover will reach them and will translate in benefits or at least we will be able to communicate with them. And here it has been quite different. They know what they want and they know why we are contacting them and getting into their territory.

11:38And this is because we are going to make them participate in everything we do to avoid scientific extractivism. Because the samples and data is knowledge obtained from their territory. So it’s important to give them a purpose for the community. Yes, communities need to be contacted about the findings, even if they are not tangible results. So we avoid starting from scratch every time. There is no continuity and the communication with the actors is key. Yeah, that’s right. There’s also the training, the formation, this appropriation of the systematized knowledge. Yeah, that is important. You have already told us a little bit about what your project is about and what the objective is. Tell us about other initiatives that are carried out at your university and how both indigenous communities and the scientists benefit from them. I was mentioning a part of the project related to the bees. Interestingly, in our region, the Mayan Milpa often intersects with beekeeping activities. This synergy between the Milpa and beekeeping impacts bees in various ways. The university promotes awareness through its programs and courses, emphasizing the careful use of agrochemicals due to the significant impact on pollinators and ecosystem functions. Consequently, producers are increasingly conscious of the quality of their products, understanding that it depends on the vegetation types and ecosystems there, which is going to impact the prices of the products.

13:06So also… Part of the project is to evaluate and explore the other side of the genetically modified organisms, especially as mechanisms to conserve the native corn varieties that exist in Mexico, because it’s also part of the milk activities and is to conserve seeds that come from those native varieties. That’s super important because it gives tools to the community precisely to protect and to look for policies that protect all their genetic potential, their traditional agricultural potential, and they can have data behind them that support this traditional way of managing their crops. Yes, one of the great advantages of agroecology is that it promotes food sovereignty. So I believe… It’s important to replicate exercises in various territories or do the same in different locations of different parts of the world. We need to consider the realistic needs of these communities and find ways to bridge the gap between scientific knowledge and indigenous wisdom. That’s right, we shouldn’t dismiss their wisdom just because it doesn’t follow the traditional scientific method. It’s not the only path to knowledge. Dismissing it in such a condescending manner is practically racist and prevents us from benefiting from the valuable knowledge of ancestral community. Of course, because there is also interculturality or a peace dialogue between cultures. So all the parties should be open to listen, to listen to everyone, because this is the first thing. This also has been a very interesting exercise for me, to simply listen.

14:38This is listening without thinking of an answer, not thinking about… What is this article related to this process? What this person says about that? No, it’s just, just please shut up and just listen. What is the need of this person? What is telling me? Yeah, it’s important. So in your opinion, is there a gap between traditional knowledge and the scientific community? Before I joined the Intercultural Maya Community or this university, my approach was quite different.

15:05I recognized that I had certain biases and perspectives that were limited in their scope. To a certain extent, condescending. I’m going to come and explain them. I think as a scientific community, we need to open ourselves and see what are the needs that the communities have. Because we can’t just rely on like, oh, I’m going to publish this paper. Yeah, very fancy paper, nice publication in nature or whatever. But what I’m doing with this? What is the solution that is provided in this paper? What are the problems that I’m tackling of the people that I’m working with? The impact that we can have or the incidents that we can have comes also precisely from the resolution of real problems. And that implies a lot to get out of the laboratories and leave outside the papers. I believe that this was done before.

15:56And from those observations came those questions or emerged those questions. That curiosity was born as they need to look for answers to something. But we have forgotten this. Finally, would you like to tell us about any personal experience or anecdote? There was a worship on beekeeping and melipony culture. So to my surprise, there were many people from honey producers to government representatives and many young people as well.

16:23There were also people selling their honey products. It was something very communitarian and it was one of the first experiences that I had with the community. I didn’t participate in anything, I think. It just came to observe and listen. But for me, it was very enriching. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences, Ari. What you said about the bees and that their honey is actually the profile of their microbiota is very interesting. And I think it is also for many people that don’t know this. I had never stalked a bee that way. It is incredible. Yes, and we are just exploring all the properties of the honey has, like prebiotics and probiotics.

17:06But yeah, we will continue working on that. Thank you very much for the invitation and for having me here. What an inspiring interview. We have heard about a few cases where science collaborates closely with the local and regional community, including traditional inhabitants and indigenous peoples. This marks a significant part of the internship where traditional communities actively participate and have direct access to research projects. It is different from the traditional approach. where they were only asked for access to sites or places, or sacred places, and then the knowledge remaining documents or papers.

17:43Now, there’s a collaborative effort to address both immediate and long -term needs, enhancing traditional methods and integrating tools to improve crop production or mitigate the impacts of agricultural activities. That’s right. From higher education, we see how these initiatives can be implemented. First, by providing an educational service for a community historically excluded from these levels of training. And second, by validating traditional knowledge. So it is a win -win situation. Combine traditional knowledge with technology and science. Another important aspect of engaging in scientific endeavors with communities is to provide training in the use of technological tools while also learning about the traditional uses of natural resources. This approach is tailored to the current needs of the community. It is common in scientific research projects to lack continuity and fail to address local needs. However, it is essential to recognize that to achieve applied science, there must first be a solid scientific foundation to test hypotheses, conduct pilot studies, and develop theories.

18:49That’s true. These synergies are wonderful because they empower the traditional inhabitants of these regions to make decisions about the development and future of their communities. It also empowers scientists because it gives them in -situ evidence, for example, of the state of their resources and the need to concept them. Moreover, potentially, these new rural or regional academics can be valuable political allies of many scientific or conservation interests. Exactly. Science -policy partnerships are critical to address the challenges we face in resource management effectively. When science is integrated into policymaking, more effective strategies can be designed that not only meet the needs of communities but also protect ecosystems. For example, providing communities with tools to protect crop genetic biodiversity and preserve traditional knowledge gives them an active voice in making decisions that directly affect their lives and environment. This inclusion not only promotes equity and fairness, but also enhances the long -term sustainability of our actions. It is a fascinating topic that gives a lot to discuss. And indeed, I think that this episode has shown that there are different ways to approach scientific development, leaving behind some of the margins that the current paradigm of science and the policies for its promotion has drawn for us. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Science Behind the Glass with this exciting topic. This episode was inspired by the article Rural Science Education, Valuing Local Knowledge.

20:21We leave reference to this material in the episode description. Listen to our next episodes on the YouTube channel and Spotify. Also remember to subscribe and visit our official website. Follow us on our social networks, Facebook and Instagram. Original music by our colleague and friend Bernardo.