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Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors, especially in names. Click any timestamp to jump to that moment in the audio.

0:01Who are the characters behind science? This is Science Behind the Glass, Illuminating the Human Side. In this podcast, we unveil the human side of laboratories and science. Scientists share personal experiences, and we discuss their meanings from different perspectives and fields of research. Welcome to Science Behind the Glass, Illuminating the Human Side, the podcast that explores the people behind environmental efforts to change the future of our planet. Today we have the pleasure of presenting Estefania González, Deputy Campaign Director of Greenpeace Andil, who is a passionate advocate for biodiversity. Estefania has led numerous campaigns for Greenpeace Latin America, highlighting the urgent need to protect our ecosystems and confront the threats they face due to the climate crisis and biodiversity loss. Recently, the world leaders gathered in Cali, Colombia, for COP16. Greenpeace and Dino made a powerful call for nature. With a massive 17 -meter banner bearing the message, Action for Nature Now, Estefania and her team sought to remind the delegates that the time to act is now. Empty promises are no longer enough. Colombia, one of the most biodiverse countries globally, has a unique opportunity to lead with concrete actions to protect 30 % of terrestrial and marine ecosystems by 2030.

1:27A goal? agreed upon the Cumming -Montreal Global Biodiversity Framework. Estefania has stressed the importance of ensuring that the financial commitments agreed upon the previous Health COP15 are honoured, with funds directed specifically towards diversity protection and to indigenous and local communities that depend on it. At this summit, the work of Greenpeace and leaders like Estefania remind us that beyond speeches, What’s truly at stake is the future of life on the planet.

2:00Stefania, welcome and thank you for joining us. For those unfamiliar, could you explain what COP16 is, the UN Conference of the Paris on Biological Diversity, and why it is so important for the future of biodiversity in Latin America and globally? Certainly. There’s a short and a long explanation. I’ll go with the short one first. The Biodiversity COP is the most important international summit for biodiversity. And what is biodiversity? Biodiversity is life and all the connections and relationships that allow life to thrive. We are biodiversity.

2:36Us three talking here are biodiversity as well as all the flora, fauna, and even the often overlooked fungi that are part of the planet’s fungal systems. This summit is where countries gather to make decisions on issues that an individual country alone cannot solve. especially given the scale of the challenges we’re facing. The most well -known summits are those on climate change, so I’ll explain a bit further. When the major Rio conference took place in the 1990s, it was the first big summit where all countries came together to discuss the importance of environmental issues.

3:08From that summit emerged three offspring, which were three conventions. The Framework Convention on Climate Change, which is the most well -known and has COPS, conferences of the parties, each year. That’s why we’re approaching COP29, which will begin in a few weeks, the Convention on Biological Diversity, or CBD, which is the COP we’re currently attending in Cali and is held every two years, hence COP16, and the Certification Convention, which is much less well -known than the others. So, here we’re making decisions on this important convention to protect life and ourselves. Perfect. That’s very clear. Tell us, from Greenpeace and Dino perspective, what are your hopes for this COP16? What immediate actions do you consider essential to transform the environmental and biodiversity crisis into an opportunity for real change? Well, Daniel, what you mentioned about the crisis is perhaps the most important thing. We must understand today that the climate crisis is directly linked to the biodiversity crisis, which is why one of the things we hope to see at this summit is greater synergy between the work of these two conventions, which are separate but stem from the same place, and to see how we can have synergistic actions where climate and biodiversity agendas go hand in hand.

4:24Biodiversity is not only deeply affected by the climate and ecological crisis, but nature itself is also our best ally in times of crisis. So synergy is a very important theme. And the other theme we can break down bit by bit is that we hope for this COP in Cali to be a COP of implementation. As you mentioned at the beginning, at the previous COP, COP 15, a framework was agreed upon which would be our direction. So to speak, which is the Can Ming Montreal Global Biodiversity Framework, the equivalent of the Paris Agreement in the case of climate. But here, in biodiversity, it set the goal to protect 30 % of our ecosystems by 2030. This is the first COP held since that framework was agreed upon, and what we hope to achieve here in Cali is its implementation. This requires many important actions that are being negotiated as we speak. Fantastic. And it is also important to highlight that, according to the Living Planet report, 73 % of the biodiversity on the planet has been lost over the past 50 years. What remains is only the 27 % of the biodiversity.

5:29including vertebrates, not even counting invertebrates. So, as you said, we have this synergy with all biodiversity, but it’s also critical to remember that we depend entirely on it, right? As you said, we are part of this. And to clarify, what are the main commitments Greenpeace hopes countries will make at COP16? How could these commitments impact the daily lives of people and all of us?

5:57Yes, well… the numbers are extremely alarming. What this study has done is that scientists have been studying vertebrate populations on the planet, and these populations are decreasing. This 73 % is the average on a global level, but if we zoom in on Latin America, the percentage rises above 90 % in terms of population decline. Out of over 8 million species today, 1 million species are at risk of extinction. That’s why action has to be taken now. That’s why we arrived here before the summit started and put up an 80 -meter banner reading, Action for Nature Now. What does this action look like? First, countries needed to come here with updated biodiversity action plans and strategies aligned with this global biodiversity framework, which aims to protect 30 % of terrestrial, marine, and coastal ecosystems, but also to restore them. This is not just about protecting what’s left and letting the rest go.

6:52No. We also need to restore our ecosystems. Unfortunately, only 36 countries presented these biodiversity action plans, Colombia being one of them as the host, which sends a very important signal to our region, but it’s still a very low percentage considering that the protection actions are set for 2030, and 2030, as they say in many places, is just around the corner. Another issue involves financing, which is frequently discussed and remains a stumbling block for climate action.

7:21You’ll hear about it again this year, when the climate change COP begins next week in Baku, Azerbaijan. Financing is a point of contention for both climate and biodiversity. Developed countries have financial commitments. For climate change, it’s the mobilization of $100 billion per year, and for biodiversity, they committed $20 billion by 2025 for developing countries. Larger, wealthier countries are largely responsible for the climate ecological, and biodiversity crises we’re facing and have generated immense wealth from this destruction. So, they now have a responsibility, not just a commitment, but a responsibility, and this principle is recognized in international law, particularly within these conventions, to mobilize these resources. What’s happening now is that the $20 billion is not the full amount of financing needed, and even so, we’ve only reached 55 % of this financing.

8:18So, one of the current discussions is about how countries can mobilize these resources and reach financing agreements that will allow many countries, which are not the main culprits of the climate, ecological and biodiversity crisis we’re facing, to act in ways that protect biodiversity for everyone’s benefit. Here’s an important message from Greenpeace. When a developed country, a northern country, allocates a certain amount of euros or dollars to southern countries, it’s not doing them a favor. Instead, It’s an investment in the health of its own citizens and in the stability of something that is planetary in scale.

8:53That’s very true. And you mentioned earlier about installing this large banner. Can you tell us more about why these impactful installations are important across different media? Yes. Well, something very important. And maybe people start to feel a bit discouraged or eco -anxious seeing governments here discussing these issues. I mean, as we speak now, my colleagues and I are planning who will cover the negotiation sessions, which may go on until 1, 2, or 3 in the morning. We’re all tired, but it’s also about giving people a sense of hope, carrying people’s voices into the negotiation halls. For example, we achieved the Paris Agreement on Climate, where countries committed to keeping global temperatures below 1.5 degrees and the Comming -Montreal Framework.

9:40which aims to protect 30 % by 2030. These agreements give us tools within our countries to hold our governments accountable, and this is thanks to the people, to civil society, to indigenous communities, to various tribal groups, and to local communities present in these spaces. That’s why communicating this to people and helping them feel their voices have influence in these negotiations is so important. At Greenpeace, we achieve this through non -violent direct actions that bring these messages to the streets. That’s why we displayed this giant banner with climbers with our activists to bring activism to the center of this so -called People’s Cop with a call to action for nature. This week, we were also in negotiations with a piggy bank, an actual little piggy bank, demanding action for nature from the countries, especially from the developed countries, which, as you mentioned, are the ones with the most impact on biodiversity and emissions. Which of these countries have presented proposals? Or do you see any making tangible changes beyond just words? Because, well, anything can look good on paper. Yes, Linda, what you mentioned is absolutely true, that anything can look good on paper. What we need here is for developed countries as a group to stop blocking the agreements. We’ve been in negotiations for almost two weeks. and we still don’t have an agreed -upon resource mobilization strategy.

11:03It’s not enough for, say, Germany to contribute part of the resources toward the $20 billion goal, even though that’s very important. Developed countries as a whole must meet their commitments to build trust. Many countries, especially in the southern hemisphere, are dealing with significant challenges in terms of vulnerability, poverty reduction, and facing the impacts of the climate crisis. such as severe droughts and extreme weather events. There must be a fair and equitable resource mobilization strategy. But it’s also true that countries in the southern hemisphere can’t condition their biodiversity or climate action solely on financing from the north. Let me give concrete examples from our region, Latin America. For example, in Chile, coal production creates so much pollution that today, children in areas like Quintero and Pachincavi, where there is coal mining, can’t attend school because they get sick, feel dizzy, or end up in hospitals.

12:00So, when we talk about climate action, about protecting the Amazon, halting the expansion of the agricultural frontier, or stopping illegal and legal mining, a major issue in Colombia, it’s because the Amazon is reaching a critical point where climate change could alter rainfall patterns, making it unsuitable for the type of rainforest currently there, which would have tangible effects on the communities that live there. So, Southern countries also need to understand that biodiversity ambition should not be solely conditioned by financing. It’s also a responsibility toward their own citizens who are already experiencing the daily and very real impacts of the climate and ecological crises. Unfortunately, these impacts will only increase. If we do everything right, we’ll prevent extreme changes, but we’re still heading toward a future with more extreme weather events, reduced rainfall, and less predictable rainfall patterns. It might rain only two days instead of over four months, affecting how we use our natural resources like water. We must take this challenge seriously. We’re past that 90s -era dichotomy of choosing between economic progress and environmental protection. Protecting the environment isn’t just for people who can afford to vacation in pristine forests or those who like to hug trees. Today, it’s about survival.

13:20There’s no possible economic development without protecting our biodiversity and ecosystems, because even economic activities cannot develop predictably into the future without it. Our economic stability is directly impacted by the triple planetary crisis of climate change, biodiversity loss and pollution. Yes, absolutely. And earlier, we discussed the ambitious goal of protecting 30 % of ecosystems and biodiversity by 2030. Why was this particular goal set? What does achieving it mean for communities?

13:54And you already explained some of its importance for humanity overall. But specifically, why this particular goal? Yes, well, what we must understand is that when we talk about ecosystems, they don’t recognize the political and administrative boundaries we’ve set, like national borders, or in the case of oceans, national versus international waters. Ecosystems operate differently. What’s happening now is that we’re not only losing large amounts of biodiversity, but we’re also fragmenting habitats.

14:24What does this mean? Human activities are cutting apart essential relationships that allow certain groups of animals, forests, or ocean cycles to function healthily. It’s not just about protecting individual species, an outdated perspective of, say, saving elephants or a specific tree, but about protecting these relationships. I love this concept of biodiversity because, as one of my colleagues specializing in this field always says, we are all biodiversity. Protecting these relationships is essential because nature operates much like us. Alone in our homes, like during the pandemic, we find it hard to survive. We need to socialize, see family and friends, engage in various activities. All those relationships are vital, and it’s the same in nature. there are many vital relationships. So, when scientists study ecosystems, they say we need to protect a portion of our ecosystems that allows these natural cycles to be preserved and protected in different ways. One of the best -known methods is protected areas, national park systems, marine protected areas. But there are also protections that involve indigenous territories. Many well -preserved ecosystems are indigenous reserves Areas managed by indigenous communities with a worldview different from ours, one that doesn’t separate humans from nature. This is something I’ve learned a lot about, for example, working with the Toscar community in Chile or the Mapuche and Yagin communities in southern Chile. This idea of dividing humans from nature doesn’t make

15:56sense to them. They see themselves as part of nature, part of these cycles, recognizing that an essential portion of the ecosystems on our planet and really 30 % is small. I’d like it to be much more, must be preserved, so that these relationships can continue and life can thrive is crucial. And everything you mentioned ties into another topic you brought up, restoration. Restoration today is discussed in terms of functionality.

16:22We have had other guests who explain this as not being able to restore individual species or recreate a past state of an ecosystem, but rather restoring the functions of natural systems. And Daniel, you used a key word here, functions. But I want to challenge it because when we talk about ecosystems, ecosystem services are a trendy term, a way of monetizing nature. How do we put a price on the role phytoplankton plays for a whale? Or on the rock where a mother jaguar rests with her cubs? Perhaps that doesn’t have a value as an ecosystem service, but it’s still an ecosystem function that doesn’t depend on what we humans need. It’s important to start thinking about this planet as something we share with other species, and ecosystems are very wise. Sometimes the first step to restoration is to leave that ecosystem alone, to give it the space to recover its functions, as you mentioned, Daniel. And sometimes it’s amazing. I’ve seen it, for instance, in burned native forests after intense wildfires, which are now affecting all of Latin America and have also impacted Australia. Often, Forestry management will say, well, let’s cut down this burnt tree and repurpose the land. I’ve been in forests where you’d think the ecosystem was lost, but if you leave it alone, the next year you’ll see that charred trunk sprouting green leaves everywhere and insects returning. And I find that wonderful. I encourage everyone to visit places that have been heavily polluted

17:53or abandoned, even areas full of trash, and you’ll see how life finds its way back. This idea of restoration involves allowing nature to reclaim its cycles and functions. Something that gives me hope in a time when it’s sometimes hard to be optimistic is going to these devastated areas and witnessing the resilience of life. It’s like the blooming desert, where even a little rain brings unexpected bursts of life. Life wins out.

18:21The force of life against death is incredibly powerful. This is why we need to give nature a chance to restore itself and to marvel at our planet and its ecosystems. We have seen many examples of this, like an insurmountable disaster, where they completely isolated the area and no humans could enter due to the radiation. Yet, the animals and forests completely restored themselves. A species reappeared that hadn’t been seen in many years, and it was simply left untouched.

18:50It didn’t revert to exactly what it once was. as one of our other guests mentioned, but it regains its functionality, which is the most essential part. Some countries might think the climate crisis is a distant problem, only affecting certain areas. But why biodiversity laws matter to all of us, regardless where we live? Often people say, ah, it’s snowing. What climate change?

19:18In a TED Talk, a climatologist compared the weather with our… day -to -day swing moods. Happy, sad, anxious. But climate is more like personality, which is more stable over time. So why we should all care about this? You mentioned earlier that we are interconnected, that we belong to this biodiversity. What is it not something distant?

19:45Why we should everyone should listen and feel that this matters. For those listening, I think if there’s one emotion shared by all humans, it’s the awe and wonder of being in nature. It can be anything. Some love the beach, others the mountains, urban trees outside their windows, or birdsong. The connection with life, I think, is what biodiversity is all about. Often, we make a big effort to scientifically prove how biodiversity provides a function, like the Amazon giving us oxygen, but that’s a very rational perspective. I invite everyone to remember how they felt the first time they saw a wild animal they’d never seen before, the first time they saw a colorful bird, or the first time they entered the sea and felt the ocean. The joy of being in contact with life is something that unites us. I don’t know anyone who hasn’t felt happy, even for a moment, in nature. And that’s something the pandemic taught us too. In confinement, many people realized that even with all the technology and streaming services available, it wasn’t enough.

20:49We all long for two things, fresh air and time with loved ones. That’s biodiversity. That’s what we need to protect. And on a practical level, the impacts of biodiversity loss are something we experience every day, extreme heat, sudden cold. As you mentioned, Linda, the climate crisis doesn’t mean an increase in temperature everywhere, but the rise in global temperature affects different regions differently. More rain in some. drought in others more extreme weather in some places and extreme lows in others in antarctica for instance certain conditions are making it harder for penguins to return to feeding areas leading to chicks being unable to survive after their parents search for food in general these kinds of things can happen and sometimes there’s more ice not less because the system becomes unpredictable and unstable this accelerated pace of change means species lack time needed to develop resilience I hear a lot, especially in this era of climate denial, about how, yes, we’ve had glacial and deglacial periods before. And of course we did.

21:55But those cycles took much longer, giving species the time to adapt. It’s one thing to know a storm comes every year at a certain time and to prepare for it, but it’s another to experience it without warning in a place with no history of such weather. The speed of these changes makes it hard for ecosystems to build resilience. And we’re seeing this play out daily. Yes, absolutely. I have a question that might give us a global perspective. In countries like Colombia, we have a fiscal control agency that monitors and enforces environmental policies and regulations, including the ability to impose penalties for violations. On an international level, who is responsible for monitoring biodiversity and ecosystem loss? Your organization acts as an advocate in such cases. Do you report findings to international bodies, or do you collaborate on tracking events like ecocide deforestation or ecosystem dysfunction? Who takes on this oversight role for critical biodiversity issues? Yes, well, honestly, I’d say that there isn’t a single international body for this, and it’s still very difficult for most countries to recognize damage to ecosystems and biodiversity as equivalent to a criminal offense. You mentioned ecocide, and today only a few countries have environmental harm classified as a criminal offense. It’s something that’s progressing, but very slowly. We’re currently involved in an important case in Argentina. A few years ago, in a place called Puntitambo,

23:27which is home to a large part of the world’s Magellanic penguin population, a neighboring landowner decided to construct a fence and drove machinery over the nests, killing dozens of penguins. This case has taken a long time but with two other organizations an Argentinian group called Patagonia Natural and the Association of Environmental Lawyers of Argentina we went forward and declared it an environmental crime. This is the first time it’s reached an oral trial which is ongoing and we invite everyone to follow Greenpeace Argentina for updates. We managed to prosecute those responsible for this ecocide on two charges animal abuse which allows us to classify this act under criminal law and aggravated environmental damage. But we’ll see how the trial ends, as these types of offenses are still treated differently. Imagine dozens of penguins and their nests destroyed during a critical reproductive period. It shouldn’t even be a question. The public authorities should have taken action, but it was left to us in civil society to pursue the case with local prosecutors.

24:30Many countries are advocating for environmental crime laws. In Argentina, we’re also pushing to make forest destruction a crime. Otherwise, what happens is that companies find it cheaper to pay fines for biodiversity damage, factoring these costs into production rather than complying with the law. We also have many illegal activities, like illegal mining in Colombia, where control is very difficult. One positive step in our region is the Escazu Agreement, which recognizes the role of environmental defenders and urges countries to enact legislation in this area. It also establishes principles of participation and prior consultation for affected communities, which can help with prevention. But it’s still hard for people to understand that destroying an ecosystem is equivalent to a crime because you’re taking life, not just one, but many forms of life. Yes, and that’s a big problem, for instance, with migratory species.

25:27In some countries like Japan, where there are dolphin massacres, or in the Faroe Islands of Denmark, there is no regulation. There is nothing we can do. It is disheartening to see these migratory species under protection elsewhere, but lacking cultural importance in these countries. My question touches on this complex part, that there should be an entity above national legislation, as this impacts the entire world, all people, all countries, as it threatens both nature and other species’ existence. Yes, this is where these conventions come in, these sometimes tedious spaces where people wonder, why bother gathering at the UN to waste time? But individual actions by each country aren’t enough. Suppose, hypothetically, that Chile could protect all its whales. They’d be safe in Chilean waters, in a healthy ecosystem.

26:21But these are migratory species that will eventually leave Chile, maybe head close to Colombia’s waters, where they might not be protected. or pass through international waters outside any country’s jurisdiction. Conventions like the CBD allow us to set collective goals and provide civil society tools to hold governments accountable. So, for example, when we talk about the 30 % biodiversity protection target, this gives us a tool. There’s also an important new instrument for oceans, the High Seas Treaty, achieved after 20 years of effort led by Greenpeace and many organizations. I also had the chance to participate in these negotiations.

27:01This treaty sets rules for all countries on the high seas. Approved after two decades of negotiations, it lets us create protected marine areas and international waters, assess environmental impacts, and more. But this treaty needs ratification by 60 countries. It hasn’t been ratified yet, which is why at COP16 we’re calling on countries to ratify the Oceans Treaty, a concrete tool that’s legally binding. This treaty creates obligations for states covering protected marine areas, marine genetic resources, capacity building, and environmental assessments. We need to bring it into force, hold COPS under this treaty, and make progress on each point. But I want to emphasize that there have been key moments when the world has come together to set minimum standards for collective action, understanding these interconnections that go beyond individual actions. Yes, it’s essential to highlight these legally binding advances in these conventions and initiatives.

27:59You also mentioned the significant role given to indigenous communities at this COP. Could you tell us more about why the knowledge of indigenous and ancestral communities are crucial for biodiversity conservation? Certainly, indigenous communities, especially different indigenous peoples, have a place in our negotiations, along with youth, women’s groups, civil society organizations, and local communities. They’re not only guardians of biodiversity, but can also offer many solutions for improving biodiversity protection. Recognizing their ancestral territorial rights is also crucial.

28:35I always try to be respectful and avoid speaking on behalf of indigenous communities because I believe it’s important for these communities to have their own voice. So, I prefer to speak about my direct experiences such as the work we’ve done with the witchy communities in northern Argentina to protect the Chaco Forest. For indigenous communities, the Chaco Forest is a place of medicine, spirituality, life, and territory. In the case of the Canoe peoples with whom I’ve worked in Chile and Patagonia, they have a different understanding of territory. We’re often more accustomed to sedentary peoples, with well -defined territorial limits, so we think, let’s create a reserve from point A to point B. But with the Canoe peoples, their territory is vast, practically all of Chile’s Patagonian fjords and channels, where various peoples coexist. So, how do we create territorial management systems that allow proper use of these areas by these communities? It’s not the same for a factory ship to extract resources indiscriminately as it is for an indigenous community to use its ancestral territory, where they don’t see fish, for example, as a resource to exploit but as a relationship with nature that ensures mutual survival. So, when I would ask them, what’s it like when you harvest an animal, they would describe it as a mutual care relationship. We care for this species, for this population because it’s vital. When we need food, We respectfully take only what we need, honoring the animal’s life in that moment. It’s a relationship vastly different

30:07from our industrialized food systems, where even the vegetables we consume contribute to environmental degradation. Understanding this role, this way of connecting with nature, which reminds us that it’s possible to live in respect with our environment, is vital. It’s also important to acknowledge these ancestral territorial rights. Indigenous communities have been on these lands for thousands of years, yet they’re being displaced by extractive industries and tourism, even though they want to continue their small -scale agriculture and other activities. Recognizing indigenous territorial rights is crucial, as the places left in the world with the most intact ecosystems are often under indigenous stewardship. These lands have often been degraded by state policies that prioritize short -term gains, especially in Latin America.

30:56This reminds me of something one of our guests, Professor Sean Olm, highlighted. He’s an anthropologist who works closely with indigenous communities. He talked about the colonialist view that often devalues indigenous knowledge compared to the Western knowledge, as if ancestral knowledge has less validity or less value. Yet, these communities have coexisted with their ecosystems for thousands of years, and their knowledge is profound. integrated, and perfectly adapted to the environment. How does Greenpeace support these indigenous communities and amplify their voices, for instance, at COP16?

31:35It’s a great starting point you’ve raised, Linda, because it’s about epistemologies about the narratives we use. Science, of course, is incredibly important, but it’s only one knowledge system, and other knowledge systems operate under entirely different logic. This debate about scientifically validating indigenous knowledge is noble, but we also need to understand indigenous knowledge systems on their own terms, rooted in unique epistemologies, narratives, and dynamics distinct from Western science. For example, I’ve had the privilege of sailing with Mapuche -Wilish communities in southern Chile, and it’s impressive how they navigate with no instruments, no GPS. They know exactly when storms will come, how the sea will behave. because they’re constantly reading the land. And this skill, this knowledge, is now at risk because of regulations on what’s required for navigation permits, limiting a grandparent’s ability to take a grandchild on such journeys.

32:33All these seemingly small issues play a huge role in passing down these forms of knowledge, which are deeply territorial, knowledge rooted in the land. Once, I spoke with a leader from the Khosgar community who mentioned that when someone claimed to speak Khosgar on Chilean TV, she thought, but Khosgar is learned in the land itself. You can’t just learn it because each word has meaning tied to specific places. Imagine a language tied directly to territorial knowledge.

33:00When we discuss indigenous participation, it’s essential for building solutions. While technology is often touted as the solution to everything, we have more access to technology than ever before, yet we’re still facing severe climate, biodiversity, and pollution challenges. We’re seeing some of the highest rates of biodiversity loss and rising temperatures in history. While technology helps, it’s not the only answer. So why not ask, why not listen to those with different knowledge systems? Indigenous communities are here with us at COP. We’ve organized side events, and discussions have centered on financing mechanisms that ensure funds not only reach vulnerable countries, but also the people within those countries actively protecting biodiversity. Discussions are ongoing about direct access to financing for indigenous communities. In many of our regional campaigns, we work closely with indigenous communities, sometimes presenting joint legal actions, supporting with scientific knowledge when needed to complement ancestral wisdom, as courts often operate within a Western framework. We strive to balance scientific knowledge with traditional knowledge. Truthfully, I’d say I’ve learned much more from indigenous communities than they’ve learned from me, and I want to express my deep gratitude to them.

34:19There’s often this somewhat patronizing idea that NGOs have to go and make indigenous communities visible, but sometimes they know exactly how to make themselves visible and how to influence change. I’m often amazed by the level of organization within Colombian indigenous communities. They’re incredibly strong and know exactly how to find those spaces. So from civil society’s perspective, it’s often about giving these spaces and letting the right people take the lead. It’s not just about delivering something to them. I am profoundly grateful to all the indigenous communities I’ve worked with. They’ve taught me so much and have completely shifted my worldview. I was educated within a highly colonial, scientific paradigm, and working with them has been like a reset.

35:04It’s like they’ve shaken my understanding of the world, turned it upside down. Wonderful. Thank you for sharing. Many of our guests have shared similar reflections from working with indigenous communities. It’s essential to keep this in mind. Finally, Estefania, you have shared many important messages today, but if you had to choose one final message for our audience, what would you want to leave them with? I think the most important message is to say that working for nature, biodiversity, and socio -environmental issues is worth it, no matter the outcome. We’re in a challenging moment globally. and within each country. It’s easy to feel hopeless, to think. It’s all over. Why bother if we won’t achieve anything? My message is that getting involved is valuable in and of itself, even if we don’t reach our goals. I don’t know if we’ll succeed. I can’t say with certainty that we will.

35:58Deep down, I think we will, but I don’t know. What I do know is that it’s worth living every day working toward a better world. whether it’s through our relationships, how we treat nature around us, how we communicate and think about nature. It’s worth it. The richness of living a life connected to what’s around us is unparalleled. It changed my life, and it continues to do so every day. For instance, we’ve been fighting a large salmon company in Chile alongside indigenous communities after a whale, which was endangered, got entangled and died. And then, nothing happens.

36:35the authorities let it go, and we feel like we’ve lost. But along the way, we’ve gained so much, relationships, experiences, connections with incredible places, and inspiring others. When a company loses millions, they lose, but when we win, we win, and even when we lose, we still gain something. So I want to encourage people to get involved, to know that it’s worth it, and to keep talking about these issues. It’s up to us. Even if sometimes we’re led to believe that the power lies solely with big companies or governments, we are not the same, and we can make a difference. We invite people to join us.

37:12Greenpeace has a platform in Argentina, Chile, Colombia, and globally with many actions where people can get involved, from sharing a video to signing a petition, to sometimes messaging a minister to prevent something from happening. Join Greenpeace.com’s call to action for nature at COP. But also remember, there are countless ways to contribute. Even just talking with neighbors and caring for the trees around us. It’s worth it. The journey is absolutely worth it. Yes, that’s a beautiful message. I completely agree.

37:43A friend we interview, who is the director of Kathnex, who was here in Australia, said that we don’t need people doing this perfectly. We need more people doing it imperfectly, but being involved. Because every action counts. Perfection isn’t necessary. We just need more people taking part. Thank you so much, Estefania. Thank you all for the invitation and for the incredible work you’re doing in raising awareness. Most of my interviews are 10, maybe 15 minutes long, not because I want to talk, but because it shows the importance placed on these topics. So gathering, reflecting together, and talking about environmental issues is invaluable, and I’m grateful for the space. It’s been one of the highlights of my week. And I’m leaving here very happy. Of course.

38:29Thank you very much. This podcast is fully self -funded and self -edited by your dedicated hosts. And we rely on your support to grow. You can help us spread the word by subscribing, sharing, and leaving a review. Find us on YouTube, Spotify, and our official website, www.sciencebehindtheglass.com. Follow us on X, Facebook, and Instagram for the latest updates. A special thanks to our friend Bernardo Avila for the original music and to our promotions manager Rafael Giordano for his invaluable technical support. Let’s keep the conversation going.