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Transcript

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0:01Who are the characters behind science? This is Science Behind the Glass, Illuminated in the Human Side. In this podcast, we unveil the human side of laboratories and science. Scientists share personal experiences and will discuss their meanings from different perspectives and fields of research. Welcome to another exciting episode of Science Behind the Glass, Illuminated in the Human Side. Today, we have the privilege of speaking with an extraordinary woman. whose passion is transforming Mexico’s coastal ecosystems. We are talking about Dr. Claudia Teutli Hernández, a biologist with a doctorate in environmental sciences and technology, recognized for her pioneer work in mangrove restoration. That’s right. Dr.

0:50Teutli is not only a brilliant scientist, but also an advocate for community participation in ecological restoration. Her innovative approach revitalizes mangroves and empowers local communities. Claudia is a beacon of hope in the fight against climate change and the destruction of coastal ecosystems. Claudia, thank you very much for accepting this invitation. To begin with, could you explain what restoration means in the environmental context and ecosystem restoration? First, thank you for the invitation. And, well, delving into the topic of restoration, climate change, and anthropic development is very complicated. That’s why today we talk about ecosystem restoration, like helping an ecosystem that has been destroyed or damaged to recover its ecosystem services.

1:41We no longer talk about returning the ecosystem to how it was before. It is not realistic, and this is not an achievable goal. So that’s why we’re already talking specifically about recovering. that ecosystem service that the community perceives. And that’s important because many people think it’s like returning the ecosystem to how it was before. Pristine, perfect, but that doesn’t happen.

2:10Also, that thing about how it was before is subjective, right? Before, it could be 20 years ago, 100 years ago, or up to 500 years ago. And your work focuses on mangrove restoration. Tell us a little bit about the ecosystem and why its restoration is important. What are mangroves? What are mangroves? Let’s see. I always define mangrove ecosystems as those rare and essential trees. Important because there is an analogy that says that mangroves are like the skin, the skin of coastal countries that have this ecosystem. The skin is one of the most important organs at the physiological level. If we didn’t have skin… we would have various health problems. And with mangroves, it is the same, although in percentage, it is a very small area compared to other tropical forests. Being in that ecotone zone between the sea and the land, they cushion, for example, extreme weather events. We are entering the rainy season, at least where we are. In the Yucatan Peninsula, we are having the ravages of LUDS.

3:20and strong winds. On the other hand, they provide economic sustenance for all coastal areas, either directly or indirectly. For example, Cancun’s excellent tourist development and economic support are due to its geographical location in the Caribbean. Thanks to the mangrove, the dune, and the pastures, there is an economic benefit from all that scenic beauty. Some people live directly from this.

3:48from artisanal fishing to obtaining wood, and even these ecotourism issues that are now booming. Some people come from abroad, where they pay to spend a night in the mangrove because it is an experience to be like in the jungle, they say, and they pay well. Although there are other ecosystem services, such as mitigating climate change, which are already speaking of more tangible things, they have this economic relevance, either directly or indirectly. That is the importance of recovering mangroves. And how fast do mangroves grow? To be able to restore any ecosystem, not just mangrove ecosystems, you must have extensive knowledge of the ecology of the ecosystem you want to work on. Although today it is thought that everything is known about mangroves, that is not true. There’s also a lack of basic ecology information, which now, due to the needs, the research parts are focusing on other issues.

4:45However… there is still a need for more research on issues from basic ecology, basic eco -physiology, and description of how this part of structure, productivity, and processes that occur that are key to being able to restore an ecosystem continues. And it responds quickly, yes, only if you have a good diagnosis, what we call forensic ecology, that is, doing it CSI style. Identify the cause of death of the mangrove. And if you identify which are those variables or components that are not working and why, the activity you do can have results in less than a year. Could you share with us what inspired you to dedicate yourself to ecosystem restoration, and in particular, in mangroves? It’s interesting because I think, like everyone else, I don’t know if it happened to you. I wanted to study marine biology, especially orcas, and I loved orcas. And I’m from Puebla, but, well, I always liked this marine part. At that time, there was no money to study abroad and study marine biology, which at that time was only in Baja California. Well, there were no resources, so I studied biology in the city of Puebla, and I did a stay at a research center at the Universidad Veracruzana, and there, with the professor -researcher with whom I did the stay, he spoke to me for the first time about restoration. In fact, he lent me a book, and I said, Oh, look, this is interesting, because many years ago, They had the intention of restoring the Laguna de Alvarado because it did have many

6:17problems with invasive species, fish shortages. There was destruction of the mangrove habitat that they had there. The dune, too. The truth is, Veracruz is one of the states that has lost the most dunes. And so, that’s how I began to read a little more. It caught my attention. I did some studies in the lagoon. I helped to do some study or survey of some variables in Laguna de Alvarado. And then I looked for where to do my thesis. So I started to find out and so on.

6:48And I ended up at the Center for Research and Advanced Studies, where they gave me the opportunity to venture into this topic. Well, at that time, I’m talking about a long time ago, 25 or 30 years ago, when nobody took restoration into account. They told you that doesn’t exist. And if you went to research centers, they would tell you no. That’s optional. And so, well, I started there in mangroves because that’s where the opportunity to do this restoration thing came in. I had not worked in mangroves. So when I started to learn a little more, because I wanted marine biology from the beginning, I came here to Sinvestav to do my bachelor’s thesis. And I stayed for my master’s degree. It was all circumstantial.

7:35Could you tell us what the main threats to mangroves are in Mexico and the world? Let’s see that the impacts of all ecosystems worldwide are a function of the economic development of each country. For example, in Asia, there was a high exploitation of mangrove resources, one for wood and the other for tannins because they used them to tan leather and shrimp farms. In Mexico, for example, obviously, depending on the state, the change in land use, weather due to tourism development, urban development, poor road… construction or the opening of sheltered ports needs to be adequately regulated. So, well, yes, it is a function of the economic development of each country. For example, in Panama, the urban development that they have on top of them, the part of Ecuador and the effect of the shrimp farms are impressive. The trends that are coming are that coastal cities will have a population increase of more than 200 percent. which is a lot. The construction in the entire coastal zone is impressive, and it is a problem in America in general. Yes, here in Australia, there is also huge problems with mangroves. They have transformed quite a bit here. In the area where I live, there are a large number of mangroves, but that has been transformed because the city is located in that area. But also, they have restored quite a lot. Could you explain why restoration

9:06techniques are not simply reforestation? Let’s see. Yes. Here, reforestation is one of the restoration activities, right? Because there are many restoration activities. However, reforestation is the most common activity worldwide. Why? Because mangroves have always been treated like pine forests. Obviously, plantations are used to recover forests in these forest areas. Here, the mangrove ecosystem doesn’t work because mangroves are wetlands. They need water. So, yes, the main action is reforestation worldwide, and what they are also doing is like monospecific forests, because they always do it with a single species, the easiest one, which is the red mangrove. After all, they have their little seeds like pencils, so they collect them and plant them. Now, the success of these reforestations worldwide has a 5 % success rate. That is very little. Many times, all these reforestations or plantations worldwide were done by trial and error. Before, there was no talk of making a diagnosis identifying the cause of death because you have to understand that something that was missing is that when the mangrove dies, there are some changes. There is also a process of succession in the degraded areas. where all the physicochemical parameters change, both in the sediment and in the water, and also the levels of flooding. They change, or they remain flooded

10:38for a long time, or it does not flood. Usually those are the extremes. Furthermore, since they want to return to the ecosystem as it was, with the species that were there, if what they do is plant a single species, That is why it is necessary to identify the action correctly and also to be able to select the species. There is also a need for more knowledge in the eco -physiological part of mangrove species to be able to know which one is adequate after you recover the conditions of the site and allow the succession process. Your restoration work has involved local communities that live and benefit from the mangrove. How has that experience been? in the development of your restoration project? And how did you involve these communities?

11:27In order to do restoration and be considered a successful restoration project, it has to be socially acceptable and ecologically functional. That is, all the restoration activities that you do have this ability to resist events and begin to recover on their own, and it has to be economically viable. Therefore, you have to form a working group. And a fundamental base is the communities. First are the people who live there. Second, restoration also has to help communities by generating jobs, which is what is now being talked about as green jobs. You have to pay them a wage. Yes, it is not their primary source of income, but it does help them.

12:10We must remember that most of the communities that live in mangrove areas engage in some fishing activity, whether they are directly engaged in fishing, collecting shells, shrimp, etc. The restoration activity is also enjoyable. When they start working with mangroves in this context, they do not see it as an important ecosystem, as if that reality is not yet so tangible. As they work on restoration projects, their perception changes as they see that restoration works. In fact, they even change the terms. Because before you would say to them, where are you going? Oh well, I’m going to the mud. I’m going to get some dirt. And then, now you ask them, where are you going? Oh, I’m going to restore it because we have to recover. That is, the changes in perception are also quite interesting. So that’s how we involve communities from the beginning, in the execution, in the monitoring of restoration actions.

13:07That also helps, and they are trained with workshops so that they have tools. They can defend their territory, appropriate those territories, and not be easily fooled if someone comes along with the construction of a 5,000 -room hotel. They have to throw mangroves. They already know that no, as the structure of the mangrove is recovering, there are communities that have seen that they flood less. For example, they can already take people to do ecotourism activities, and there will be birds, which is very common now. You are telling us how important all… This change is at all levels, cultural and economic, even for the local communities that live and benefit from the mangroves. And in long term, what can the impact be on these communities? But behind the money from the daily labor and the fact that they are already aware of the mangroves, how do you see this change in perception affecting these communities in the future? The change for long -term help is the conservation and recovery of these ecosystems in the face of the events they are experiencing because, for example, in this season that we went through droughts, these record temperatures that we are breaking, it is terrible. Yeah. Here we have flood in December.

14:25It completely flooded where we are. It was catastrophic and the temperatures were terrible. Also, members of these coastal communities saw it when we went to show with the students. Something that surprised me is that the surface water, usually the temperature is at 30, 35. This time it was at 45 degrees with salinities of 60. The little fish floating, some dead, so the repercussions are already being felt. When they see that it is recovering and this dampens, for example, the temperature, they realize that if we protect them, they will keep us. Also, not having a patch of vegetation requires that you have air conditioning or a fan. There is an economic cost for electricity, and you have to pay the bill. So the truth is that having trees dampens this incidence of temperature.

15:18Later, sometimes the community don’t know it, but they have a lot of power and a lot of influence in decision -making at the political level. They can stop many things, more than one of what I can say or publish or in the newspaper. They are the ones who have this power in their hands. which sometimes they do not know, it is good to give them the tools to fight for it. And what do you think are the conditions that are needed for restoration processes to maintain their benefits in the long term? There has to be a group formed, as I said, with the community, with specialists, with government representatives, and with NGOs, but ethics must prevail. Ethics, because many groups have appeared worldwide, is not something local. to a country where some feel they are specialists and need to transmit the correct information to the communities. For example, we are in the decade of restoration. We are in 2024. And we are still determining how many hectares have actually been restored. But why? When we talk about the success of restoration and you go to the communities, if they were paid and if they were given money, they will tell you that they are successful. People… with deficient purchasing power so if someone comes along and gives them 20 000 pesos obviously they are going to tell anyone you know what it worked even if ecologically it didn’t work so in order to move

16:49forward that ethical part is in all environments academic social and political because you have to be consistent with what you say and what you do After all, although there is a global interest in restoring and maintaining mangroves through conservation, there is also an inconsistency because on the one hand, you are protecting, but on the other, you are giving permits to build these large urban areas. The other thing, which is also within the academic part, is to be honest, generate knowledge and accept where we fail.

17:23Because if you talk to any researcher dedicated to this, they tell you everything has been very successful. And why didn’t anything grow? Oh, who knows? So that’s what I’m advocating. Why not say where we failed so that we don’t make the same mistake? That’s very difficult because even if you see that everything is dead in the area, you say it didn’t work and they don’t accept it. So I think that’s why I’m coming now with ethics at all levels, because there are also communities where, although communities are essential, we shouldn’t romanticize them. There are also people who have no interest in conservation.

18:00And, well, you also put yourself in their shoes, right? Also, land tenure in the mangrove is a problem. There is community property, and there is private property. So sometimes they are not making any money from that land. And if someone says, hey, I’ll give you a million pesos for your land, and these are people who have no money, well, they think about it. And very older people we have touched, they say, Look, I’m going to die. Let them do what they want. But I’m going with my million. You can’t judge them either.

18:34Recognizing where we have failed would make many of the restoration projects more successful, and not only in mangroves, but also in whatever ecosystem they are. Yes, that’s very interesting, because behind all these actions that lack ethics, there are usually economic pressures. There is someone who needs to say one thing in order to sell a piece of land. or to be able to change the land use of some place. There is always an economic pressure behind it. So there would have to be a change of model to avoid the pressure that those factors play against restoration.

19:10Generate alternatives because also when you want to do things correctly, I mean the 2001 permits that also that I’m not against. There has to be legislation, but there also has to be a willingness. on the part of the government to be able to do the activities because it is easier to build a hotel or a golf course than to do a productive project. I don’t know to what extent the government can buy land from people to protect that part.

19:36That’s what they’ve been talking about. But here, the issue is getting to the price, right? Some people do it by buying land to allocate it for conservation, but it is a pretty solid political role. Finally, would you like to tell us any interesting anecdote that has marked you or that you remember, such as any particularity during your mangrove restoration work, either in the field or sharing with the communities? Let’s see. Well, there’s been everything here. From when you arrive and want to do the restoration and they don’t believe you, to being left in the middle of the lagoon with the boat engine broken down, and there to see who… rescues me because I don’t know how to drive a boat.

20:20Even to be chased by the crocodile, I have to admit that I am from the city, and they always tell you, the nests, the crocodile nests, be careful, I imagined them on the Discovery Channel, with frogs and all, and it has nothing to do with it. It’s a mound of sand, and I just stopped there, and nothing more when they told me, Claudia, when I tell you to run, but I didn’t know it was a nest. So, When a little boy tells me, Claudia, run, and I run out. Well, it’s because the mother was already coming. It was the nest of a mother crocodile, and since I’m small, I thought she would take me in one bite. That’s right. I passed.

21:02Everyone. At that time, they were Ana Gabriela Guevara, the athletics champion. I think I beat her, but yes, those are the anecdotes. Also, I have learned a lot from the communities. I really respect local knowledge. which teaches you to value and teaches you about ecology. In the academic part, you learn from both good and bad experiences. At least you recognize what you don’t like or what you are not going to do and mark your line. Wonderful. Very brave with mosquitoes and all. Oh, well, that’s the other one. The first time I got into the mangrove, I came out like these candies in Mexico, the garrapiñados, with first -degree burns and dehydration.

21:42And look! I stayed for more than 20 years. Thank you very much for your time and for sharing all this knowledge and all your experiences with us and with the public. No, on the contrary. Thank you very much. Linda and Dani. Great interview. Making a diagnosis and identifying what variables are affecting the ecosystem, in this case, the mangrove ecosystem, is essential to developing studies that allow us to understand the dynamics of these ecosystems. and where an intervention is necessary and when it is at risk. It’s also necessary to have realistic objectives. Yes, doing that precisely, in restoration ecology, we learn that ecosystems are very complex systems, and there are some properties called emerging properties that come from the interactions of their complexities, actually. For example, I also work in mangrove ecosystems like Dr. Claudia, and we only focus on a tiny delimited part. which is the part of microorganisms that inhabit the mangrove sediments. Knowing these microorganisms help us to understand other processes that help restoration or are linked to restoration processes.

22:50Something else that is interesting is what Dr. Claudio mentioned, that restoration is not about returning the ecosystem to its initial state. I think that needs to be emphasized because for many people it is about returning it to its pristine state. And it really is about making the ecosystem ecologically viable and resilient. But it doesn’t mean that it’s going to return to its initial state. That’s right. We were talking about it in the interview. We don’t know exactly what we can refer to as initial state. Initial state may be 50 years ago, 100 years ago. So really what is sucked in these restoration works is…

23:35As our guest explained to us, to resume or recover ecosystem functions that are important for the environment and for the people who use the ecosystem. Something that is also indispensable is to involve the communities. They allow for better protection and recovery of ecosystems. Successful conservation and restoration projects involve the community and they cannot be left out. Explaining and telling them what is going to be done, that does not involve the community. Involving them means respecting their point of view and making them participants so that there is a chance of perception. They have knowledge that no one does not have, and with all their humility and willingness to listen to everything. I have an example of a project in which the Colombian government invested a lot of money in microorganisms that help to decompose organic matter. You may have heard of it, Dani.

24:30It’s called End Microorganisms. And this came from Japan. So the project was to teach communities in different regions of the country how to manage organic waste. But what happened when I visited one of the most remote regions where it was implemented is that the containers that the government gave them to manage this organic waste was unused. And I saw that the packages of microorganisms were already expired. So when I asked them what had happened, they told me, well… They came, they gave us these things and they left them there. It is a shame because in reality the management and composing for people from farming families, well, it could have been beneficial. Yeah, and you can think that simply by arriving in a few days or during the development of a short -term project, you’re going to be able to implement measures in communities that have to make a technical development or maybe implement things. that they have never learned in their lives. Contrary to your example, as we saw with Dr. Claudia, these collaborations with communities in these mangroves ecosystems have been going on for more than a decade. So communities are becoming more aware.

25:45They already know a little more about the technical issues, the concepts that are required when restoring an ecosystem as complex as the mangroves. Yes, I totally agree. Well… We learned a lot, and I hope everyone enjoyed this episode. The article, Community Benefits are Crucial for Landscape Restoration, inspired this episode. We have included the references in the episode description. Remember that this podcast is self -funded and self -edited by its presenters. You can support us by listening to this episode on YouTube, Spotify, and subscribing and giving a like, and visiting our website.

26:23Follow us on our social media like Facebook and Instagram. Original music by our colleague and friend Bernardo Aguila. And technical advice of our friend Rafael Giordano.