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Transcript

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0:01Who are the characters behind science? This is Science Behind the Glass, Illuminated in the Human Side. In this podcast, we unveil the human side of laboratories and science. Scientists share personal experiences and we discuss their meanings from different perspectives and fields of research. Welcome to another episode of Science Behind the Glass, Illuminating the Human Side.

0:40The podcast where we dive into the depths of the ocean and the realm of television to uncover fascinating stories. Today, we have the pleasure of hosting Dr. Teresa Carré, a distinguished venom ecologist and television producer. Dr. Teresa has dedicated her career to study the venomous animals, particularly the Australian box jellyfish. Her research has significantly contributed to our understanding of venom and its applications. She holds a bachelor in science, a master and a PhD in zoology and tropical ecology, specializing in venomous animals of the tropics.

1:17Currently, she is in the Media and Communication Manager at the ARC Center of Excellence for Indigenous and Environmental Histories and Futures. Beyond her scientific endeavors, Dr. Corrette has made a name for herself in the world of television, working on renowned shows like CSI and CSI Miami as an animal handler and scientific consultant. She has also been featured in various on -camera interviews sharing her expertise with a broader audience. In 2018, Dr. Caret launched the company Scientific Synergy with her best friend and fellow scientist, Dr. Matt Gordon. This company serves as a platform for communicating science in various formats, from content creation for documentaries to edutourism ventures and inspirational guest lecture series. Dr. Caret’s unique blend of scientific knowledge and media experience, along with her passion for making science accessible and inspirational, makes her a fascinating guest. We are excited to dive into her journey exploring the intersection of science, media, and public engagement. Welcome, Dr. Caret, and thank you for joining us today.

2:30Thank you so much. That was quite the introduction. To begin with, could you tell us about your origins story in science? What motivates you to follow a scientific career? Okay, well, I guess when I started in science, I left high school and decided I wanted to go to university, but I probably like a lot of younger people didn’t really know what I wanted to do. I never saw myself as a scientist, so I never sort of thought that would be the direction I would go. I actually enrolled here at JCU for a Bachelor of Arts. I thought maybe anthropology or sociology. And my first year, I did the broadest range of subjects you can imagine from psychology, sociology. I did modern poetry, modern fiction, education. I really smeared myself out over every single possibility.

3:24And I enjoyed it and I was kind of getting good marks, but didn’t have the passion for it. I was doing fine. as you do as an 18 year old at university, I guess I was enjoying the experience. And then I took just one sort of throw in subject, which was an environmental science subject. And I just loved it. All of a sudden I went from learning in the other areas, I was learning about theories and sort of philosophies and emotive areas. And then I got to science and people were telling me hard facts. Like I was learning about the carbon cycle and boundary layers and weather.

4:00And there was something in that. information that just resonated with me. And it was like, gosh, this is like a whole area that I can learn more. And I felt a real drive towards wanting to find out more. And then as soon as I started in science, I just couldn’t get enough. I transferred immediately and just didn’t look back. I found that it was a world that I previously had thought was inaccessible. I guess I had heard, you know, scientists seemed like such an intimidating term.

4:30And all of a sudden I was there doing science. And that feeling, I guess, has carried along my career with me because I like to show people that you may not see yourself as a scientist, but in reality, anyone who wants to learn about the world around them, who wants to ask a question and find an answer, that is a scientist. It’s not an unobtainable title. It’s actually anyone that has curiosity. And so I sat on that path and haven’t stopped. Well, anyhow, being a scientist is demanding. So how do you make the balancing of your career as a scientific in research and your career in television production? What motivates you to explore and commit to both paths? I don’t think I’ve committed to any path, actually. Exploring, yes. Committing, no. I’ve kind of wandered around between the worlds and it’s seemed to have worked so far. So I did my undergraduate degree to start with in tropical and marine biology. And then I went on and did a master’s. And for my master’s degree, the university that I was at was just starting to get back into box jellyfish research.

5:42Not much had been done since the 60s. So there’d been a real gap in knowledge of anyone doing any work in this area. So I started just volunteering. And then I realized these animals are so fascinating. So I got into it more and more. And because they were known as the world’s most venomous animal, if anyone was doing a show like a kid’s TV show on deadly animals or a BBC wanted to do that countdown of the deadliest animal, they always ended up on our doorstep, you know, because we were sort of the only ones doing work in this area. So I had a bit of experience and exposure to the TV world early on. But my real move into TV didn’t happen until I had kind of a PhD breakdown.

6:26Admittedly, I was halfway through my PhD and I was just not sure how I was going to finish up. And it was all seemed a bit much and everything. And I was approached by a TV production company in LA. And they said, would you come over and give us an interview? And this all happened because there is some quite infamous footage of me in hospital after I suffered an Irukandji sting.

6:51My PhD work was to do with Irukandji jellyfish, which is a type of box jellyfish, which gives rise to a thing called Irukandji syndrome. It’s called this because this is the country where the syndrome was first discovered. I’m sitting here on Irukandji country right now. And basically during the process of my research, I managed to get stung by one of these animals while there was TV crew with us. So there’s footage of me suffering this syndrome and that had never been seen before. There’d never been footage of this before. And because this footage existed, I got a lot of interest in doing different interviews about what was it like and how did you feel?

7:30So I didn’t think much about giving this interview. I’d given heaps of them before. The difference with this one is that they wanted to fly me to America to give the interview in person. I was at the time thinking, I don’t have time for this. Like I’m in the middle of my PhD. I’m having a meltdown and crisis. But my best friend who I now run the company with said, if you don’t take this free trip to LA, like you need to leave your desk, like just go and give this interview.

7:56So I flew over there and had this serendipitous meeting with this production company. And they were trying to get into the world of animal and nature documentaries. And they were sort of struggling to find content. And what I found in the world of TV, a lot of people who create TV, maybe other people who, aren’t the best prepared for creating TV. So a lot of them were getting content from Wikipedia. They were film school graduates. So they’re very good at the skills that they had.

8:25But as far as researchers go, they were literally getting their information either from other TV shows or lifting it from the internet. So what happens is you get a lot of recycled information. You don’t necessarily get new and exciting content. So just in the 24 hours I was in the US, I started talking to them. about cool animals that I think you should look at. Like, oh my God, have you heard about this? And onychophrenes and like sponges are cool because of this. And they were like, how do you know this stuff? I was like, this is like first year science. It’s not even really cool stuff. This is just first year. So it led to this situation where they said, you know what? If we gave you free reign to come up with a TV series, like what would be the best animals in the world you’d want to look at? And what would you want to do? And what would you want to find out? So for a stressed out PhD student who’s having a mid -degree crisis, I was like, this is, oh, my God, I could tell you so much stuff. So I had flown home and they said, will you come and work for us? Like just do a three -month stint. We’re trying to green light an $11 million production and we want you to come and work on the TV pilot for us. We’ll fly you to, it was in Swaziland, where was the pilot?

9:43And it’ll be going around and playing with venomous animals and chasing things down and trying to create a pilot to see if we can get that going. So fast forward five years later and I was still living. So I lived in the US for five years and worked with the same production company for that period of time and created a whole heap of TV shows in this time. My PhD desk just sat untouched with a little light covering of dust for that period of time. And, yeah, I became a fully -fledged TV producer without really meaning to. So when you talk about balance, I’m not sure I’ve ever been that balanced. I kind of flew from one thing to another. And I did come back to Australia in the end and I have finished my PhD and now I have a bit more balance in my life. But it was never a plan, a well -thought -out plan, and I haven’t, like I said, necessarily. done a good job of running the two lives simultaneously all the time but I feel I found a better balance now. Well but that’s exciting because you you know take advantage of the deviations of life and the melting down of the PhD which happens a lot. It’s a pretty big process and I am glad that I returned to it but I know that it’s not an easy process and I think that I’m very fortunate that I managed to run away, but still return.

11:07So I have sort of found that banality to my PhD now, which is good. I wouldn’t have forgiven myself if I was just tripping around the world the whole time. How has working with television influenced the way that you convey scientific concepts to the public? That’s a good question. I think that TV is a unique media because you have to find a good compromise between Information that’s accessible. So you need to make sure it’s fit for your audience, but you need to make it exciting enough and also throw in that kind of sexy elements. You know, what’s that hook? What’s going to make people want to watch it? But really important to me as a scientist to maintain the factual content as well. It’s very easy to make people watch something if you can go into a fantasy land or extrapolate some information to the nth degree so you really have moved away from what the data or the research is telling you. But for me, from an integrity point of view, you’ve got to try and find that line where you’re still staying true to what the research is saying but entertaining people as well. That’s why we call it edutainment is to try and educate people but entertain them in the same way. And I think just…

12:24having a family having friends um i see a lot of scientists who will you know you say how are you going and you just want them to say great but they’ll say so my data set has recently discovered that there’s an anomaly in that you know and you’re just like oh wow no that’s wow and i wouldn’t get away with that with my family as soon as i try and tell them the interesting thing i’m doing their eyes glaze over so you learn to sort of talk in more sound bites make it appealing make it relatable You know, otherwise you’re going to lose people. Yeah, because it’s like how surprising the world, the nature world it is. For example, with the spiders, people are like, oh, they’re disgusting, they’re scary.

13:05And then you tell them about all the crazy strategies that they have, all the hunting different habitats. They’re also really good fisher spiders. What? Yeah, they have these crazy strategies for mating. Some of the people are like, oh, wow, do you have any? Actually, you assume that everyone knows about that, but it’s not true. Yeah, and it’s such a shame if you have someone who’s in an education position who can’t grab their audience and inspire them because the natural world is so inspiring that you do it a disservice to not make it. engaging and exciting because it is inherently exciting. So yeah, I find it’s a complete disservice to science if you can’t communicate it with enthusiasm. And Teresa, with your experience in TV production and science communication, you have undoubtedly had many memorable moments.

14:06Can you share some of those moments or rewarding experiences that you had in making science accessible to the public in general? Yes. So many moments. I’m trying to narrow them down. I think in my later years in production has been the most rewarding. And I think because I’ve realized what it is that I love about it so much. To start with early on, I was like a kid in a candy store. What animal do you want to find? And how can we poke it?

14:36You know, and I want to catch one and I want to like, you know, it was very, it was very. me centric. They’re like, will you go and hand feed tiger sharks? Yes, I will. You know, it was all like jump into the biggest action, the fastest pace and everything else. So that’s what made me excited. But I think now I realize that there is such an opportunity through media and especially TV to engage people in a way that they would not get access to. And the flip side of that is to find people. and give them a platform to speak on in a way that they would not have had before. A lot of my most recent engagement is to do with trying to give a voice or hear stories. And I don’t tell stories because they’re not mine to tell, but translate stories, especially from traditional owners and give that perspective on things. And maybe in a way. that they haven’t had before. So to do my name drop, the David Attenborough series that I worked on was probably my most memorable and favourable opportunity because I got to work with some of the people who were on the country where I was born. So Gimawai, Wollombari and Dindji country, which is where I grew up, but I didn’t have much knowledge about my own place, my own birthplace until I worked on this project. And we looked at the traditional stories of this area and what brought this area to life in its current state. And the

16:07very quick, and I’m doing it out of complete disjustice, the story was that the ocean level rise in fairly recent history, like generational memorable history, was that one of the people in the story had speared a sacred fish, which was a stingray. And that angered the people and the land was then inundated and flooded with water. Again, I’m doing a very much disservice to it. It’s such a beautiful story. You have to watch the documentary and you’ll see it properly.

16:39What we managed to do, though, is interweave that story with one of my friends who’s a researcher at the university here, Robin Beeman. And he does all the animations of how the sea level rose according to the data they’ve collected, the scientific data. And we managed to weave these two stories together so beautifully to show sort of the Western science perspective and the traditional story perspective. And the traditional story comes with a song and a dance as well as the verbal story. So you’ve got this beautiful, holistic view of the origins of the land where I grew up. But the Guju Guju, who’s one of the Gimahoi elders, had not told that story in this format before. So their story was now going to be going on an international scale and people from all around the world could now hear the origin of this land from both the scientific and the traditional perspectives. And getting to provide that platform for people to have such a loud voice and have ownership of that voice, that’s probably my most memorable situations when I can find that. that way where it’s win, win, win. You know, everyone gets to hear and speak and be listened to is really pretty awesome.

18:01We developed a company called Scientific Synergy because it’s this synergy that I love, the bringing together of things and working these worlds together. That’s amazing. How do you approach the challenge of making complex scientific concepts engaging and understandable for a general audience? my cheeky answer would be I’m a pretty basic person like I’m not the sort of person who thinks in algorithms you know or in scientific speak I have learned the ability to understand complex concepts but it’s because I you know ground them in fairly simple concepts so I think that’s that’s the trick is You can overly science anything if you want to. You can use a lot of big words.

18:48I had to do a lot of work in the medical field as well. And I learned a lot of really big words that actually mean much smaller words that they just use lots of bigger words. So I think it’s quite easy to explain difficult concepts in fairly mainstream ways if you want to, you know, and there’s always a way of making a concept relatable somehow. It’s definitely a knack and a skill. But again, being surrounded by my family and friends and always wanting to tell people what I’m into and what I’ve just learned about and what I’m going to look at, I would be lost if I didn’t have a way of being able to tell people these things. So I guess that’s the skill is learning to translate like that. It may be natural for you, but it’s kind of hard because you get used to the jargon because sometimes when you are in the academia environment, All the time people are pushing to use the right word, use the proper concept and you get used to that.

19:49So it may be hard sometimes. But see, you speak several languages. It’s the same thing though, isn’t it? You just translate. So you get used to talking in one language and then you just have to speak in another and you’re just like, okay, what’s the word for, okay. It’s translating. Yeah. I’m not good at languages, so I assume it’s much more complex than what I’m saying. But for me, it’s a translation process. And when I worked in TV production, the head of the company, he had a very short attention span. And if you didn’t speak in sound bites that he could relate to, he was off doing something else. Like you had to grab his attention, use words he understood, deliver it fast, and then you had him. But otherwise, he would get lost. So I think that’s good practice to have someone with a short attention span around you. Well, something that my supervisor, Tasmin Reimer, was like, okay, now practice with a kid and explain all your presentation into a 10 -year -old. I was like, oh, wow. That’s challenging.

20:47But then actually you grasp pretty well the concept because you can get a complex concept or simplify the concept. No, oversimplify it. simplify the concept then you’re doing a good job you understand properly everything someone um explained to me like if you were going snorkeling so snorkeling on the surface is really basic information is like that’s your general audience you tell them all the basic things it’s okay to do a duck a duck dive down to more complex information but let them come up again for air you know and say Okay, so continuing, what are some of the most surprising or fascinating discoveries that you made in your research on venom ecology? I think probably the most rewarding side of my research was I managed to redefine what Irukandji syndrome is. It’s a very difficult syndrome to define, but I looked… I looked retrospectively at thousands and thousands of hospital case studies and I managed to create a clear definition of what Irukandji syndrome is, which means that we’re catching maybe 40 % more cases than we were before.

21:57I won’t go too much further into that because there’s a lot involved in that. But basically that was quite rewarding is to know now that there’s a better definition of the syndrome. So more people will be treated properly knowing that they have this syndrome. because it was a bit difficult to define. And probably the other most rewarding thing from my research was that I managed to get these jellyfish polyps in culture.

22:23So when you’re deciding to research a completely invisible animal in an ocean, like it’s one of those ridiculously difficult challenges. People say a needle in a haystack. No, it’s a needle in an acreage property. that is constantly moving with currents and wind and everything else. Like invisible animals in an ocean is a ridiculous thing to study. But in about 18 years ago now it was, I managed to find a population of animals right offshore on a research trip and I managed to get them to spawn. And actually I developed polyps from that. And they’re the first polyps from one of these type of box jellyfish to ever have been cultivated and put in culture. These polyps, are still in the aquarium and the university today. That’s 18 years later. We still have them in culture. If you imagine a box jellyfish, it’s a mobile life cycle is when it’s swimming around in the ocean, but it has a sessile stage, which is basically when it’s stuck to the bottom on a rock and looks a bit like a piece of coral, but it’s about a millimeter in size. So almost impossible to find in the wild, but having now got them in captivity and got them in culture.

23:35They then will asexually reproduce. So if you just keep feeding them, they’ll butt off clones of themselves. So we have tanks and tanks of these cultures of polyps, which now have sat down the university for 18 years. And from there, there’s been so many research projects that have derived from this polyp culture. They’ve been used in different parts of the world. And we’ve learned so much more about a really cryptic species because we now have a population of them. So that’s… Not necessarily to do with the venom ecology side of things, but having a stable culture of an animal, which before was amazingly cryptic and we were going years between even seeing them, was probably what I feel was a pretty big contribution to research in that way, at least, is that it’s spawned, there’s a science joke there, a heap of research projects from that discovery that was made, which was kind of cool. Well, that’s quite exciting. I guess the community is Teresa’s community polyp. My babies, yeah. My babies.

24:38I go and visit them still occasionally and look at them like, yeah, hi. Mom’s here. Yeah, and this jellyfish, this tiny, it’s like a super tiny, right? You imagine this huge jellyfish that is so dangerous with the tentacles, but it’s like a tiny, it’s mini -liters, right? Yeah, well, the one that I was studying is a species called Alatina and they’re an offshore species. So they’re a little bit bigger. They grow almost the length of your hand, like they’re quite long, but they have only four tentacles and they are transparent. But I did a comparative study between ones that occur offshore in Australia and ones that occur offshore in Hawaii. So I did a comparison between Waikiki Beach and the Great Barrier Reef, which if you’re going to pick two field sites, definitely recommend Waikiki Beach and the Great Barrier Reef. It’s a pretty smart choice there.

25:32And you have worked in different roles that are not strictly necessarily related with your career. What have been the challenges and rewards? Well, I think the rewards are easy because I think working in a heap of different roles, I’m a big fan of transferable skills. You know, you don’t necessarily know what skills you’re gaining at the time, but there are so many things that are transferable. Like it doesn’t make sense to have worked in TV production after being a scientist, but actually there are so many things you can transfer from one to the other. So organizing a film shoot in a remote location is very similar to organizing a field trip in a remote location.

26:13You know, there are certain logistics that have to be involved. You have to achieve certain goals. You’ve got to… take the right crew, find the right permits, achieve objectives. So actually it was quite easy going into the world of TV production after doing a science degree. And I’m all about the fact that you don’t ever waste skills. Like I’ve worked in administration. I’ve worked as randomly like a tour guides and stunt person. I’ve worked on commercials. I’ve worked, you know, in all sorts of things. I used to be a course fanatic. I’ve done remedial massage.

26:48I’ve done bookkeeping. I’ve done guitar playing, like random, random things. And there’ll always be a time where you’re somewhere and you’re in a remote location and someone’s strained a calf muscle. I’m like, oh, I’m a masseuse. I can help. It’s like, what? I think you always use skills that you learn in life. And I also think that having had quite a different path and done like a lot of different roles I’m not um I don’t feel like I’m okay I’m I’m the scientist on this trip so I will do the science no I’ll go get the coffees I’ll clean up the floor afterwards if it needs doing I’ll unpack the truck I’ll you know I’m I think having a variety of backgrounds means I’m I’m willing to pitch in and do anything um interestingly I heard the other day that someone said they’d done a couple of different roles and the difficulties they faced was their sense of identity. Because once you leave like a strict science career, and I did leave my science career to go and be a TV producer, it’s so funny how we identify with what our role is or what our job is. And if someone says to you, oh, hi, nice to meet you. What do you do? I never knew, like, am I still a scientist, even though I’m not working in science? Am I still a TV producer if I’m not working in TV? So I know that can be a bit of a struggle because we identify people so much by what it is they are doing. But honestly, I’m

28:18an admin lady. I’m a scientist. I’m a tour guide. I’m a single mom of two kids. I’m a communicator. I’m all these things. But that can be a challenge at times is working out. what you are because we place such labels on people and what they’re doing as to who they are so that’s probably a challenge that’s a very emotional challenge but it’s a challenge yeah that is interesting because many times people tend to identify themselves with their jobs or their careers and people are much more than that definitely and also well Teresa you already told us some of your interesting stories in documentary filmmaking But you also worked with the legend Sir David Attenborough.

29:05Can you share how it was working with him and some of the challenges that it depicted? Yeah, I mean, he’s the ultimate, isn’t he? If you’re in science and production, that’s probably the biggest name you could work with. It was actually when I returned back to Australia and had left the TV production life because I decided I needed to finish this thing called a PhD that I was still enrolled in. And I was contacted by the BBC over in England to help them with some research, basically. I just started on as a specialist researcher. And it was amazing because I got to, again, content create. So suggest stories, suggest places, suggest my friends who I am very biased, but I have amazing researchers as friends.

29:52So I was putting forward their stories and their ideas. And it was only about six months into the process that I realized they’re not telling me. something like there’s they’re leaving off what the name of this production is and they’re leaving off who is doing this and usually that is a sign I’ve worked with a lot of like famous people and the less that’s mentioned the more intrigued you’re like okay there’s someone there’s someone here you’re not telling me anyway after you sign all the non -disclosure agreements and they decide you’re a trustworthy they sort of admit oh this is a David Attenborough series it’s like ah nonsense And so I went on to work on that series for two and a half years part time around having a child and finishing my PhD.

30:35So I was that was definitely had to balance that one. And that was amazing because it was that kind of top shelf quality in a production. I have worked on different. of quality production, some of which they will try and, can’t you just pretend this is this, you know? But that sort of, you know, by the time you get to an Attenborough production, that’s definitely top shelf and you get to explore the coolest places, the best things, and we would do recce trips to make sure, you know, places were appropriate and that, you know, the footage was going to be the best it could be sort of thing, which was great. And, you know, the whole time you’re never sure if you will get to work with him. in person because sets and shoots are grueling and so and you know he’s getting on in his years and you don’t want to sort of drag him all around the country so it was deemed that he would be able to spend just a couple of days on location actually shooting um and one of those thankfully was that he was going to come out to give my country and and do the story that i had worked so hard on and long on um with the traditional owners of the area and That was, I mean, the ultimate because these people had heard that their story was going to be on a high level platform. And then before you knew it, they actually got Sir David Attenborough to come out and spend the day on the beach with them hearing their story in person, which was obviously best case scenario. He is a lovely man, absolutely lovely man. And yeah, just everything

32:07you imagine. It was quite the experience. That’s so lucky. And so exciting. Amazing. Teresa, thank you very much for sharing this space with us, of your exciting stories, your experience. Thank you for all the good advice. And yeah, thanks for accepting this invitation. Thank you so much for inviting me to come on. Great interview.

32:51Science and communication always go hand in hand to inform the general public. However, it is our responsibility as a scientist to avoid oversimplified concepts and misinformation. On one hand, we have a duty as a scientist to make science accessible to other audiences. On the other hand, journalists should make their work and avoid sensationalism, which rarely happens. Sensationalism causes misinformation, and that can affect animals and ecosystems. I have multiple examples, but one that comes up.

33:24It was when I was being interviewed for a local media about one of the papers with funnel web spiders. As you can guess, people are terrified and amazed by these animals. I tried to explain to the journalist that I found variation in behavior and the lady continued changing my words, saying it means they were more aggressive. I insist that she shouldn’t be using words that I haven’t said. It was tricky. In the end, after knowing her to be professional, She just made a shortcut and left a big part of the interview out. Yes, sounds hard. It’s really hard actually to count with communicators or journalists that are properly trained to cover science or environmental news.

34:09Most of the time they don’t understand the terms or just want to tell a shocking story and appeal to people’s fears, for example. It’s similar when the media cover accidents like shark bites and… these kind of things. Yes, television has such a powerful influence on people and that is because important to secure scientific integrity in media work. Documentaries are my favorite way of learning and the same ethical considerations and rigorous research apply even more to documentaries.

34:43As our guest Rafael Giordano pointed out, the documentaries increases awareness about scientific topics. Besides, I love that the information available about organisms and natural systems has been updated with time and scientific breakthroughs, so we can have great entertainment products all the time as long as science and people interested in communicating it exist. Also, the audiovisual technology is amazing nowadays, and we can see images that you wouldn’t believe. These products with a nice narrative are very inspiring. Thank you for joining us in this episode. Nature Documentaries inspired this episode. This podcast is self -founded and edited by its host. You can support us by listening to our episodes on our YouTube channel or Spotify. If you like this episode, hit the thumbs up button and subscribe. Visit our official website and follow us on social media such as X, Facebook and Instagram. The original music by our colleague and friend Bernardo Aguila and the technical support from our promotions manager and friend. Rafael, you’re done.